Summary
Joe and his 18-year-old daughter Esme record a podcast together about raising teenagers, created for Esme’s school project. The conversation is remarkably candid — Esme shares her perspective on what works in their relationship and what she observes in peers whose parents take different approaches, while Joe reflects on his own traumatic teenage years and how healing from that shaped his parenting.
Their relationship model centers on mutual respect, availability without chasing, direct communication, and bringing problems to the teenager as a shared challenge rather than issuing commands. Esme observes that most of her peers don’t feel genuinely liked by their parents — loved perhaps, but not liked — and that micromanaging and criticism correlate with substance use patterns she sees in friends. Joe shares his own rebellious teenage years with a green mohawk, getting kicked out, boarding school, and the mentor (Lil Tuttle) who changed everything by simply being interested in who Joe was.
Joe emphasizes that being in a good relationship with yourself is the prerequisite to being in a good relationship with your children, and that the parent’s unresolved issues inevitably show up in the child’s behavior.
Key Concepts
- Be available to your teenager, don’t chase them
- Bring problems to teenagers as shared challenges, not commands
- Kids need to feel liked by their parents, not just loved
- Micromanaging comes from feeling out of control
- Your relationship with yourself shapes your relationship with your children
- Being genuinely seen and interested in transforms behavior
- Give teenagers something harmless to rebel against
Key Quotes
“My rule has always been if you’re taking care of yourself, if you’re participating in the family, and you’re being good to people, you get as much freedom as you want.”
“I always tell my friends, my dad is one of my best friends.”
“I don’t think many of them feel like they actually have a relationship with their parents outside of just like this is my father, this is my mother.”
“He wanted to know who I was… and so the best in me showed up for him.”
“Being in a good relationship with myself is what taught me how to be in a good relationship with you.”
“I’m going to tell you I hate high-waisted jeans just so that you can wear them and be in rebellion against me.”
Transcript
and the thing that adults forget is that teenagers know that they’re young and supposed to be learning right and making mistakes too and making mistakes so they’ll rebel against you if you tell them what to do [ ] you I’m not going to do that I’m going to do my own thing you know a little bit about rebelling as a teenager just a little wait you’re not supposed to know that the green Mohawk photos are supposed to be a secret hey Esme hi Dad so what do we you doing here what’s like what what have you got me into um okay so I have a project for school and they want me to create a podcast and I wrapped my brain of things that I could make a podcast about and I remember that last time we made a podcast it was super fun and so I thought we’d do it again okay so what wait wait what what kind of podcast are we doing it about this like what what what yeah I was thinking that we could talk about what it’s like to raise a teenager cuz last time we talked about what it was like to raise me from a young age and what that Journey was like and so I figured why not why not take uh chapter two and make a podcast about that okay but if we’re doing that I want your opinion about like what parents grew up on being a teenager like how I am more than happy more than happy to to provide that information I bet you are yeah I I do think that there’s a lot of stuff that um I don’t know not that people do wrong but just that um parents are searching for connection with their teenagers and they do this or they do that and it kind of works in the complete reverse of what they want and so I think there’s a lot to explore yeah awesome all right cool so where do you want to start how do you want to start this I was thinking that we would start with me asking you the question what was it or how has it been to raise me as a teenager I’m 18 leaving the home soon which is breaking both of our hearts I think yeah it is and yeah and um yeah what have I would say last five years been like uh um I mean in general it’s a I mean I thrive in the teenage years I I like your mom was so much better at the younger ages and i’ I finally have like got into my own when it comes to teenagers I I love it I love being the parent of a teenager I I constantly people are like how is it I’m like it’s great they’re like look at me crazy I I think it’s wonderful I love I love it there’s been some challenges too there’s like I’d say the two biggest challenges I have are trying to figure out like when to you know when to draw a boundary when to let you make a mistake um when to say okay that that’s not going to work and that one’s really hard for me because I want you to have as much Independence as possible of course and then so so that one’s a challenge for me and um and I think the other big challenge for me in raising it’s funny as soon as I said I was like the other big challenge is like that like I it’s over way too soon like I like like I was talking to um ran into an old friend in Santa Rosa today and she was like the the like the hurt that you feel now before they leave is worse than the hurt that you feel when they leave and I was in my head I’m like [ ] [ ] [ ] like there’s I can’t imagine it yeah I miss you when I’m gone for a week so that also is going to be really challenging for me is like I feel like I’m just getting to know you as an adult and that’s and that’s hard but the I think that Journey’s over though yeah I tell myself that too like I know that we’re gonna get to keep on hanging out and that we like hanging out together um but it’s just like having you here every day is is is sweet yeah I’m gonna miss it yeah just starting we’ve been talking to una like or una and I have been chatting and yeah that hurts to think about yeah and I think that she’s right though I think your old friend might be right that the anticipation of someone leaving is more painful than the actual going and I’m not going I’m physically moving but I don’t yeah you know yeah I always tell my friends my friends or when I meet people they’re like oh tell me about your friends I’m like well so my dad he’s one of my best friends uh yeah uh I really love our relationship and where it’s where it’s come to and I don’t know all the steps along the journey yeah me too my so yeah I think yeah I think that’s the to get to the challenge of it the challenge is like you want to do something and I am clear that it’s probably not great for you I generally want you to be able to do your thing and occasionally I know it’s really important for me to draw the boundary usually you thank me if I draw the boundary maybe not right away uhhuh um but my my rule has always been or my thought process has always been is like if you’re taking care of yourself if you’re participating in the family and you’re being good to people you get as much Freedom as you want yeah you’ve been really consistent about that and I think that it it works yeah like well it works for someone like you it yeah it works for me I I don’t think it would work for for everyone but just cuz of the relationship we have and kind of like the respect that I know goes both ways and how yeah it feels like a reciprocal relationship where I put in my part and then um like I get my part you know like it feels really balanced I um and I and I’ll say like I really appreciate something about you is like if you do get all uppity with me you know what I mean on something you apologize quickly yeah I I think vice versa but if I’m like okay no it’s like it’s too much to go out for another night and you’re like ah you want to do it you get all Moody for a minute it’s usually less than like five hours or or overnight where you’re like yeah that was a good thing for me thanks well I think that happens every single time whether I admit it to you or not you know but I I mean you and Mom both you guys don’t put your foot down hard off often like it’s more like you’ll I’ll um I’ll think of a plan I’ll propose it to you guys and you’ll be like oh like so you know you’ll like dig into it a little bit let me find my own conclusion of like oh maybe that’s not such a good idea or like I am really tired and I’ll benefit from getting a good night of sleep or something like that but occasionally you do put your foot down and I of course I get upset but it’s like yeah I’ve learned I think like maybe over the last two or three years that when you guys are putting your foot down I I should just listen to it like I have to be like okay I understand that I’m frustrated and they’re definitely seeing something that I’m not right here and so like Let It Be You know it’s interesting like how much like I have to let my heartbreak every time you get really upset in those moments like you know like I know that that’s the job of the parent but I can just feel so many parents too when their par when their kids get really upset at them like it’s a heartbreaking thing right you like anybody anytime that someone you loves gets really upset at you there’s some heartbreak and with teenagers you know it’s going to happen sometimes right sometimes you’re like I know the thing I’m GNA say is going to piss them off and they’re they’re gonna they’re gonna let me know that they’re pissed off and that’s a little bit of a like like to be undefended in that is a bit of a trick I’m sure yeah I mean yeah I think maybe that can lead to a lot of problems in a like a parent um child relationship is like I don’t know just thinking about that of a parent gets scared of I don’t know maybe getting yelled at or having their kid be angry with them or they’re just looking for connection with their kid and they like oh if I say that or if I tell them no then they’re going to push me even farther away and stuff like that and I think it just completely the opposite cuz when you do put your foot down like it tells me that you really care and that you you do love me and that you’re like oh you’re really looking out for me and seeing like having my best in interest in in mind yeah I think it’s the the way you do it too right if you’re hard about it if the way that I if the way that I would protect myself from that heartbreak of having you upset with me was to get really hard at you I think then maybe the respect can’t be felt as easily I don’t think it would be yeah yeah and when it comes out as anger I think it’s so much harder to receive yeah yeah how about the how about the other way how about like the parents who are constantly micromanaging their kids what how do you think that like how does that I I have a a story of a friend right and her yeah her parents do that and she has a younger sister and God they’ll be washing the dishes and the dad will come over and you know you’re not doing the dishes right like this is how you actually wash the pants or like no no no like not like that it’s actually like this and I do that voice cuz it’s just so absurd to me you’re telling your 15-year-old or your 18-year-old how to wash a pan yeah that’s absurd and I completely understand like where they’re coming from of like wanting their kid to learn how to do things like properly or wanting to feel I don’t I don’t actually you would probably know where that like need comes from more than I would but but I think in the long term it just dis empowers um the teenager or the kid or how however I think it just in any situation whether it be a boss or or a parent of like being micromanaged all the time it doesn’t help you get better at things or feel confident doing things by yourself it didn’t it just is the complete opposite yeah I noticed that totally and yeah I mean when I notice I want to micromanage something it’s because I’m feeling a little little bit out of control typically out of control yeah you like find control in one part of your life because you feel out of control in another part exactly yeah I think that’s what what do you think how does how does it so you obviously have friends some are like vaping a lot some are smoking a lot of pot I would assume some are drinking a lot yeah we were just talking about like we started to see that happen in the seventh and eighth grade for you know some folks and what do you think causes that like what what not what causes that in general but like what’s the parents responsibility in that or what’s the like what do you see as the kind of the through line in the way the parents are with those kids with those kids like the through line that kind of causes and continues the behavior potentially yeah exactly yeah that’s a really good question I I think it depends on each situation I think when there’s like a tough home life situation where maybe parents are um fighting or one parent is finally taking care of themselves and has kind of I don’t know separated herself from the F his or herself from the family that could be super hard and I think that is also the micromanaging and the criticizing especially um I always say like or I think I actually probably got this saying from you but the there’s the shame um like there’s the body language that says shame and then there’s the body language that says I get criticized you know and one the criticism comes from the shoulders and the um shame comes kind of from the butt where like the hips are kind of in I don’t know exactly yeah tucked butt tucked butt yeah exactly a shame butt shame butt shame butt yeah shame butt and I noticed that a lot of the kids who Vape a lot have the crit criticism um you know like the the posture of someone who gets criticized a lot and the uh the weed kids it’s really interesting it’s a little different um there’s more shame than there is criticism with um that I’ve observed with um with weed for some reason and I don’t exactly know why that is but I think my guess would be that shame kind of leads to an internal crit uh critical voice and yeah smoking weed probably puts that voice on pause temporarily um yeah yeah um for me for me when I when I was in my my 20s and was like smoking pot a lot yeah for me part of it was a big repressed anger all my anger was going towards myself like that shame and there was like all this repressed anger and when I started moving it when I started moving it a lot of like my desire for pot seemed to go away how how when you look at the kids who are smoking a lot of pot at your age how much of it do you see as repressed anger like they’re not allowed to be angry about that probably a fair amount I don’t see the repressed anger necessarily but the kids they’re not there’s not a fire to them if that makes any sense or like like for example I know this one kid we were friends freshman year he was super spunky like quick with The Comebacks had a lot of like sass but in a really like sweet and Lively way and he started smoking a lot of weed sophomore junior year um kind of still in the loop right now and he’s so different the like the fire is just so much more dull and there’s this like kind of like okay like I’m just going to go with it and I I would guess that that is not feeling anger like when you release that anger like yeah I I don’t know yeah there’s a there’s a a there’s like a Tibetan thing I think it is where they talk about how anger when it’s fully expressed and fully loved it repres it shows up as um determination and Clarity like and when it’s kinked it might be repressed or it might be yelling at somebody or it might be something like that but it sounds like you’re noticing like a lack of determination in in these kids a lack of motivation a lack of determination I even feel that when I haven’t felt my anger or like I think exercise is a way that I often kind of release that stress and if I’m feeling frustration or anger like I’ll exercise or you’ll send me to the bedroom with a baseball bat and give me a timer um but but I think when I or I don’t know it just kind of happened sing a lot of anger around um I don’t know all sorts of all sorts of things last week and I felt myself kind of lose motivation like I had a Chem test today and most of like week last week I was just kind of avoiding studying and just avoiding like I don’t know there’s just like such an avoidance of like I’m just going to like rot in my bed on my phone and like I don’t want to do anything and like I feel shitty and I feel stuck and and then as soon as I exercised I was like oh like we’re back we’re like I don’t know yeah yeah another question for you or like discussion I want to have is like yeah how how many how many H how many kids actually feel like their parents like them like and I don’t mean yeah like no that the kids feel like they’re liked yeah because like is a different thing yeah because when I look at like even if a parent does like their kid what I notice is it’s like you shouldn’t be angry you shouldn’t be this you shouldn’t be that you should like you’re too feisty why aren’t you getting this sport it’s like they’re they’re not getting communicated like hey I like you they’re getting communicated like a lot of like this is the way you should be which means you’re not naturally that way which means like you need to be controlled you need to be managed we like we don’t trust you that you’re GNA like show up and I’m just wondering like of your friends like what percentage I mean we live in a very good Community Etc like a lot of we’re fortunate and so a lot of kids are raised pretty well here but like how many of the kids that you like look at in your school do you look at them you’re like oh they feel like their parents like them not many that’s sad yeah I’d never thought of that before yeah I don’t think I think most of them feel loved by their parents yeah but I don’t think that many of them think that I don’t think many of them feel like they actually have a relationship with their parents either like outside of just like this is my father this is my mother the parental role I don’t know you know like like going back to what we were saying earlier of the mutual respect yeah I don’t think that that’s there in many Teenage parent relationships yeah I think that’s one of the things that always thought about with you is like some version of I I I remember there was something that happened early on where you were biting me this is really young and I good to say you’re it’s not not recent and Tara your mom was like um you’re biting her and I was like nibbling on you I’d be like and it was like playful but she was like you’re telling her it’s okay to do that like oh interesting and it’s like right if you yell at your kid you’re telling them it’s okay to yell back at you if you’re if you’re if you don’t like your kid you’re telling them it’s okay not to like you like there’s like something in that always and I was always like oh I want to treat you like the way I would treat somebody like an adult that I respect now you want to draw boundaries so that’s not quite the same way right but besides that and in every other way I want to treat you like an adult that I respect it’s like it’s always been a part of I have a job to teach you certain stuff but like yeah yeah and that’s that’s the other thing that I find which is really cool in our relationship that I see lacking in a lot of the parents is um it’s it’s like if I’m having a problem with the way that you’re behaving I bring the whole problem to you right so I’m like okay so it’s my job to make sure that you’re not addicted to your phone like as a parent I’m not a good parent and I don’t want to nag you yeah and I don’t want like you to feel micromanaged by me right so what do we do together to help you have a Rel the right relationship with your phone that’s going to make you the happiest and how do I support you in that yeah and you know what I mean like that that little conversation I feel like doesn’t happen with a lot of teenagers I feel like it’s not even just that little conversation I feel like whenever there’s something like that we sit down and have a conversation about it it’s it’s never like a you should or like why aren’t you you know like finger pointing it’s more like this is what I’m noticing like how are you feeling arounded does it feel good to you like cuz with the phone like I too don’t want to be on it all the time like it doesn’t feel good for me and I notice how much happier and more creative I am when I I’m like doing filling my time with other things and like when you sit down you’re like hey I’m noticing that there’s this pattern happening yeah more often than not it becomes a a discussion of like oh my gosh I hadn’t noticed that like what can we do together to change that pattern and it’s always a joint ever it’s never like a oh like I have to do this or I have to change that it’s like how can I’ll support you in changing that yeah which is super cool I have another question for you yeah yeah what um what are things that you have noticed work it’s kind of along the same lines of what you just asked me of like what are the tactics we can call them of like um parenting a teenager that seem to have a pretty good success rate yeah so emotionally I find you never want to chase a teenager yeah but you always want to be available so like when you come in the room I if un if you’re doing homework or something but generally when you come into the room I try to make myself available to you sometimes I’m really good at it sometimes I’m not quite as good at it so I’ve make myself available but I really try not to chase I notice that like parents who are constantly like in their kids crap you know like what’s going on in school today and then there’s like this little like have you thought about it this way like it’s like their job to make sure their kids are happy like at yeah or doing the right thing or something like that that like I I find that that is that is not a like that’s not a way to create a great relationship it’s better to have the the kid come to you as much as possible and when you say something be direct about it instead of oh I’m not you know like I see a lot of like I want to say this thing but I don’t feel like I can say this thing so I’m gonna kind of skirt around it a little bit have you really thought about you know like instead of that doesn’t feel good you know instead of like that straight direct thing yeah so that’s one of the things um the other one is that that topic that I said which is just showing up and saying like this is I don’t want to nag or this relationship doesn’t feel good right now like our relationship doesn’t feel like the way I want it how to we fix it or yeah I see this thing and I have a job I have my conflict between being a good parent and not wanting to nag you I mean nobody really wants to nag their teenagers so bringing the problems to the teenagers I think is really an important thing yeah a really great tactic is the thing that I do with you is like take a two day two three day road trip with your kids every yeah every every six months where you actually get to connect and don’t bring phones or minimize your phone Ed to like between five and six at night and really have time to be with each other and enjoy each other those have been awesome that yeah that’s been I think really that really helps with the reconnection so that’s another tactic that I think is really good um also just one that came to mind of that goes along to what you were just saying is whenever I noticed that whenever you um you or I are away from home for a while or just get super busy and caught up in life you call me or you see like dinner T dinner time or whatever and you’re just like hey I haven’t seen you and talked to you in a while like can we get lunch or can we get dinner can we spend time together instead of like this chasing like you were saying like I don’t know it’s like yeah the puppy running away and you’re like come back come back come back and the puppy’s like oh my God they’re chasing me you know yeah and just like naming it like hey like I would love to spend some time with you where we’re not distracted by phones or talking about the future of I don’t know like scheduling or something like that like can we just sit down have a nice conversation administration of Life yeah yeah I think that’s a good tactic too which is like have time to connect with your kids that are not like telling them what to do scheduling [ ] deciding what the next thing is doing sports like actually just have time where you’re just hanging out and listening and asking questions like totally I noticed that if I ask you questions from not a from a I just read this recently NATO place which is like no attachment to the outcome like if I ask you question to the outome I like that yeah and so if I ask you like which is view basically like one of the aspects of you like if I if I ask you questions from view you if we have this space you like you love it we talk and then at the end of it you feel deeply connected and you’re really grateful for it totally yeah it’s yeah it’s never much of a struggle either no yeah yeah I think the other the other tactic that I’m thinking about right now is like like if I think about you and Una it like I I I I try to meet you both where you’re at rather than yeah where I’m at you know like I I we so as a younger teenager you’re an older teenager I think there’s this habit of people um comparing the younger one to the older one kind of thinking that the younger one should be where the older one is which is totally instead of going oh yeah like she she she’s younger and so meeting you where and in the interest that you have and you know what you want to talk about and what Uno wants to talk about are completely different totally different things yeah different totally different things and to be in your world to go down the rabbit hole in your world is really an important thing to me and and and and a good tactic like like go down the rabbit hole like be in your kids worlds for a while right and like see how they see the world I had this I had a session recently with a woman and she said having a problem with the teenager and I was like not a problem but something wasn’t going right with the sun and I was like oh I’d love to talk to him and so she goes out of the room he got suspended or some such and um go goes out of the room and I hear her you know say so you know you want to talk to this guy he’s like well I don’t know I have to talk to him you could see she he was upset and I sat down and I and when he sat down to talk to me I was like you know first of all only like only when be here only as long as you want to be here yeah but in my talking to him I was just really interested in how he saw the world right and and you could tell that wasn’t his day-to-day his day-to-day wasn’t somebody interested in his world what he thinks and how he thinks and and I get like for posting I’m like normally when I see this I see that you know normally right there’s probably like some kind of thing with the men group where like somebody’s trying to Top Dog the other one he’s like no we’re like more like Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn like we just like to like get into big trouble together you know I mean and like and he had so much joy and I was like oh like what’s fun about that he’s like oh we did the what but but it was just what was interesting is what was clear is that there wasn’t a lot of people who were interested in the way he saw the world right and I think that’s another was like being deeply interested in your kids ways of seeing the world it makes I think just in any relationship in general feeling actually interested in and heard and listened to you feel so much more deeply connected at the end of a conversation yeah everybody wants that and you’re you’re also sending the teenager the message which is the way you look at the world is valid yeah who you are is valid and and the thing that like I think a adults forget is that teenagers know that they’re young and supposed to be learning right yeah and making mistakes too and making mistakes so they they they’ll rebel against you if you tell them what to do [ ] you I’m not going to do that I’m going to do my own thing you know a little bit about rebelling as a teenager just a little wait you’re not supposed to know that the green Mohawk photos are supposed to be a secret you gave me something to rebel against as a child cuz you knew it was a natural part of a thing you’re like I’m going to tell you I hate high-waisted jeans just so that you can wear them and be in Rebellion against me for that and so it doesn’t come out in some weird other sideways way and I wore high-waisted jeans for for years it was not cute like the super super highwaisted ones you know yeah I remember doing that oh yeah oh my God I made such a fuss about how I you’re like my mom used to wear them oh they’re so old they’re so ugly and I’d sh by you in the morning I’m weird when you told me that was all just for the plot and you were doing that just for fun and kind of I don’t know as like something on oh my God I don’t know what what what happened for you when I when I told you that I remember that was like what a year and a half ago two years ago yeah but I was like well you hate Highway you no not really I mean like they don’t look good on everyone but I don’t really hate them I was like what I was like I don’t know I think my first thought was just pure shock and then the second thought was like what else is he making up it was a little duplic pretty funny yeah I mean my rebellion was so hardcore as a teen I think that was part of it is that like well my teenage years just [ ] sucked you know and and I remember there’s a guy named Lil Tuttle unfortunately pass he was a chain smoker but like he was the first guy to see me as a teenager and he was like he wanted to hear me he wanted to to know who like I get Ty just thinking about like he wanted to know who I was and he and he and he saw the best in me so the Best in Me showed up for him he was the guy running this boarding school that I got shipped off to and and um and I think that I just remember how important that was and and how simple it was like for yeah LOL it was just like it was just pleasurable for him like and he just somehow trusted that I’d be a good kid and I and so I did I mean I I went from getting bad grades to Straight A’s I like I I just showed up the way that he saw me right instead of the way that my mom worried about me or my dad you know fought with me wow yeah do you think that I think I think that’s where it comes from I think that’s where I learned it was from LOL makes that makes a lot of sense yeah do you think that how like how do I phrase this exactly do you think that the way you were raised as a teenager kind of um I don’t added to the inspiration and the wanting of having a really good relationship with your teenagers when you were a parent no I mean you just knew what not to do like that that didn’t work that didn’t work that didn’t work I think what well I mean the way I was raised as a teenager was traumatic as [ ] and I had to do a [ ] ton of healing like 20 something years of healing to like get to a place where I could be in a good relationship with myself and I think being in a good relationship with myself is what taught me how to be in a good relationship with you right like I think that like the when I look at somebody who’s raising their kids and their kids are like in full occasionally there’s other reasons like there’s chemical imbalances or something but but if their kids are in like that in a big thing it’s like it’s more of a reflection of the parents the way that in my world the more of a reflection of the way that the parents are in relationship with themselves and each other yeah one of the things that I have seen through your school all your schooling years is like if the parents are fighting like your mom and I had that bad spell for six months when we were going through yeah yeah um uh but like whenever the parents are fighting you can see it in the kids like you could probably at this age like or let me ask you how how how clear is it for you to be able to walk around your school and know whose parents have been like where there’s like home strife and has been for like more than a couple months yeah it’s I would say it’s incredibly clear yeah and sometimes I don’t notice it right away and then I’ll meet the parents and I’m like Ah that’s why I don’t know it’s sometimes it’s just funny and like duh but other times it’s so sad like yeah I’ve been like so upset with this person for how they’re behaving or so frustrated by it um I don’t know there was a girl on the basketball team and always seeking attention and in ways that were just so just distracting and frustrating to be around and um one day she asked for a ride home I gave her a ride home and she started talking about what it was like living in her home and how um she she basically she I don’t know she said it really clearly she’s like I I never feel like they pay me any attention I was like oh she’s not feeling loved or cared for or feeling like her parents like have any time to give her attendance so she’s looking for it in every other place and just continuing that pattern it made me really really sad and and like extraordinarily grateful at the same time of like oh I get to go to school and not need to seek the attention or the approval of the people around me cuz I feel secure and I I like I get what I need at home you know like yeah how did your relationship with her change once you saw that like she was annoying as [ ] and then you saw that and then how did it change it just kind of turned into compassion I I parts of her still bothered the [ ] out of me um yeah yeah um but under the frustration that I had towards her was like more of a deeper understanding of where that came from and also yeah she’s considerably younger than me 3 years maybe and I was like oh like I can’t obviously be her parent by any means but I can show her that she’s loved and that she’s cared for because the pattern that she’s working out in with our team and everything makes her the outcast and ostracized and people don’t like her and everything and so and I don’t know we just had our last game and she was sobbing and gave me like the biggest hug and she’s like thank you for for making me feel like a part of this team and I didn’t even feel like a part of the team necessarily but just it just is such a like I don’t know it was really sweet yeah yeah yeah could you could you tell me a little bit or could you tell the people um a little bit more about what your childhood or not your childhood but your teenage Hood was like yeah I mean I it was full Rebellion against my parents it was you know you know back then it was like everybody dressed pretty much the same and if you dress different there wasn’t like oh you have like people are more Gothic more like Punk more new and all that was cool it was like that you were either normal or you were not normal and so I was like not normal and I just like this is 14 or so I would run away from home I would not come back for a couple days I had a mohawk my parents kicked me out of the house a green mohawk my parents kicked me out of the house um I tried to get a job the police showed up took me to counseling with my parents the counselor pretty much told my parents like this isn’t his issue he’s 14 this is your issue my parents response to that was put me in a boarding school um and the first boarding school didn’t click very well I was I was Disturbed I was like one of the like if you think about like one of the most Disturbed kids in your class that was me like I lied a lot I [Music] um I I didn’t feel confident I was one of the smallest kids in the class I um smoked I like you know got yell dinner table every night every night yeah while I was home I would get yelled at for like an hour hour and a half every night yeah and like if I tried to stop my dad who was in his full alcoholism at the time was like see I told you you were weak like there was no way out like I was and like in retrospect you know my parents marriage was was having a rough time because of my dad’s alcoholism and so they were coming together over me the problem as a way to stay together like that’s that’s I think it happens a lot which is like like a it’s kind of I think the theory is called like family Crucible where one of the kids acts out as a way for the parents to come together yeah and save family and and so it was just that’s that it was really bad and then I’m the sen I like the cool thing that my dad my the cool thing about my father is he was always there for me he was like he was always if I got in trouble he was there if I got arrested he was there if I had a problem with the teacher he was there like there they said was like it was us some way if there was a problem with the outside world he would show up for me and and we were going back to the same school for the second year and and we I went to visit a friend who had changed schools and when I went to this second school I was like this is the school for me and he was like okay and he did whatever he did it just like right there on the spot I went to that school that’s where I met L Tuttle yeah who became like a father figure to me but someone who actually loved me for who I was and and so by the time I was high school senior um I was not in boarding school anymore and I was straight A student I was well adjusted and however like that trauma I don’t think I was really through the thick of that till I was like 33 wow you know like the yelling that my parents did to me Taran I did your mom and I did with each other in the first couple years of our marriage um the the feeling of aloneness the feeling of emotional abandonment like that stuff like lasted for a long time I mean there’s still obviously there’s never a time when the residue of how you were raised goes completely away like there’s still like little pieces to it but but yeah I would if I hadn’t done a lot of the work because I wanted the marriage to work I it was it would be a [ ] show I’d be I I would be like my father probably right which you you know what that was like yeah and that was when he wasn’t drunk yeah whoosh yeah yeah and somehow grateful for the whole thing like like somehow I don’t think that I could do any of the work that I do and I don’t I if I had been raised in a different way I don’t think I could do the work that I do because like it would be harder for me to relate to all the different traumas that people have been through and I think to some degree I think I would raise you with the same love and respect but there’s some way that like I I can I think I see you more fully because of like of the depths of [ __ ] that I went through makes sense you know yeah so the compassion you’ve lived it yeah yeah that makes sense thanks for chatting you’re welcome thank you hey that was really fun good to be with you I love you I love you thank your teacher for making this happen I don’t know what the I think it’s NPR I I think I’m yeah sending it into a a competition chitten okay all right Zoes I love you love you too bye