Summary
In this episode, Joe is interviewed by Alexa Anderson about boundaries — a topic the Art of Accomplishment community had been requesting. Joe defines effective boundaries as actions that increase your capacity to love the other person and don’t tell them what to do, but rather what you’re going to do. He emphasizes that boundaries are not about controlling others, but about empowering yourself while preserving love.
The conversation covers the difference between boundaries and ultimatums, how resentment points to unexpressed wants (not always boundaries), and the weaponization of boundaries in modern culture — where people use “safety” or “boundaries” language to control others. Joe shares personal examples including evolving boundaries with his father’s drinking, and discusses how the scariest part of boundaries isn’t the consequence, but the freedom on the other side — because it forces you to grieve the cage that was never real.
Alexa and Joe role-play a boundary scenario from a group house, demonstrating how constricted boundaries land poorly while boundaries delivered with love and openness transform dynamics. The episode concludes with the insight that when you truly feel empowered and trust yourself to hold a boundary, it doesn’t even land as a boundary to others.
Key Concepts
- Effective boundaries increase your capacity to love
- Boundaries say what you will do, not what they must do
- The difference between a boundary and an ultimatum is fear
- Wanting someone to change reflects a part of yourself you can’t love
- What’s scariest about boundaries is the freedom on the other side
- Weaponized boundaries are control in disguise
- Being yourself either gets you promoted or freed
- Resentment points to unexpressed wants, not always boundaries
Key Quotes
“A boundary when it’s used optimally increases your capacity to love somebody.”
“It doesn’t tell them what to do — it tells them what you’re going to do.”
“We’re scared of the consequence, but whatever the consequence is, it is a direct path to the life where we are accepted and loved for who we are.”
“It’s scary if your boundary is sort of accepted and the person loves you in your boundary, because then that means that your the way that you have modeled the world in the past has to now change.”
“Anytime you want someone else to be different, it’s a reflection of a way you can’t love yourself.”
“When you truly feel empowered and you really trust yourself that you can stay at a boundary, it doesn’t even land in anyone as a boundary.”
Transcript
it’s scary if your boundary is sort of accepted and the person loves you in your boundary because then that means that your the way that you have modeled the world in the past has to now change yes and that means you have to change welcome to the art of accomplishment where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease hey welcome back to the show today we’re going to try something a little bit different we’ve been getting a lot of questions from the community on Circle and direct messages about boundaries so today my nesting partner Alexa is going to interview Joe with a number of questions that come up commonly around boundaries so hi Joe Hi how are you Alexa I’m great good do we want to tell everybody who you are and what makes you what makes us have a podcast with you uh sure it’d be good for me to know anyway well I’m Alexa Anderson for about the last decade I’ve been doing design research and strategy so helping my clients mostly big corporate clients and teams of big corporations to sort of ask better questions and make big decisions since pandemic I’m pivoting to doing coaching also I’ve worked with you Joe and that’s been really amazing and I would consider myself to be part of a community of people who are doing this kind of work and trying to live into some of these ways of being a person in the world I’m glad you’re here I’m glad you’ll be asking questions I understand that the questions are around boundaries today yeah what made you want to ask me questions around boundaries what was the cause of it this topic but I do feel like I didn’t I don’t oh wow let’s start there do you have a boundary around that did you want to talk about something else what would your choice no I do think this is an exciting topic and I do think that the topic sort of like chose us or chose the podcast all right um I know that people from the last class really had some open questions about boundaries and had been hoping that y’all would do a podcast about boundaries okay cool yeah we’ve done one so this is this would be a follow-up it’s great I think we’ve done one we have we done one Have you listened to one I don’t remember there being one and I’m pretty sure I’ve listened to all of them okay wow um boundaries come up sometimes okay a lot of things you talk about but I don’t think you’ve done a podcast all about boundaries before all right well fantastic let’s do it I love it and I love the idea so it was it was something that’s come out of a lot of you being a part of the group you’ve seen the group want wanting to do it and talk about it and there being a a lack of it in the in the work so far so that I’m really grateful that you’re paying attention like that and that you that you’re that you’re letting it choose you and you’re listening that way thanks thanks Joe yeah yeah okay so where do you want to start well I do think you have a really interesting definition of boundaries yeah and I think it’s a little bit different than how a lot of people think about it so do you want to start by just telling us how you think about boundaries yeah so boundaries that are super effective both for you and for the people you’re with are effective because they’re not part of the power Dynamic they’re not part of like a fear dynamic where somebody’s trying to get control over another person a boundary when it’s it used optimally increases your capacity to love somebody the person who you’re drawing the boundary with and it um empowers you so that you see that it’s your own um it’s your own choice at your own choice and you get to make that choice and so the way that I do that is if you think about a boundary that you want to draw with somebody which is it does two things one if you when you think about saying it to them it immediately allows you to love them more deeply just the saying it just the saying it no matter what their reaction is maybe their reaction is fuck you and maybe their reaction is oh thank God you said that it doesn’t matter whatever it is when you say it Your Capacity to love them has increased and then the second thing a good boundary does is it doesn’t tell them what to do it tells them what you’re going to do so it’s never about controlling of the other person so uh so let’s say this is one that comes up a lot for people who are dealing with any kind of abuse in their life often a really great boundary there is hey if you’re going to yell at me I’m going to ask you to stop yelling at me if you continue to yell at me I’m going to leave and 30 minutes later I’ll give you a call and if you’re ready to talk again without yelling at me I’m happy to re-engage that would be an example of a boundary so it’s not asking them to do anything any differently but you’re immediately able to love them because you more because you’re not accepting some sort of behavior that’s belittling to you it’s really hard to love something that can dominate you that does dominate you so it’s an incredibly difficult thing and if you think about boundaries in love there’s no there’s no iconic figure of love there’s no Paragon of love that doesn’t isn’t really strongly boundary whether that’s like a great mom or Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa all of these people were incredibly boundaried so boundaries are part of what makes a loving relationship it creates trust I really like that definition boundaries that make more room for love Yeah it can’t exist without it and I think the thing that makes that so hard for people to grab hold of is that love is often conflated with caretaking I know we did a podcast on caretaking but love is often conflated meaning like loving is conflated with being nice loving is being you know making sure the other person doesn’t get mad I think is actually what it is it’s like oh if I’ve loved them then they can’t be mad and actually compassion can really piss people off when when you can be very compassionate with somebody and they can get really really upset with that that’s what makes it compassionate it means that you’re willing to take their anger because it’s what’s right for them like that’s not what makes it compassionate but that is like the the harder compassion to have is to suffer for The Compassion or apparently suffer for the compassion it’s not actually ever suffering but it really feels like you’re gonna when you’re thinking about doing it um it strikes me that there’s this way you said that like the compassionate things that you’re willing to take their anger I think I I don’t disagree but the way I would say it is something like the compassionate thing is being willing to accept their anger yeah that’s a better way to say it I would say most accurately probably is to love their anger you might not take it and you might tell them that they need to leave but you can be in love with their anger that it doesn’t you’re not avoiding it yeah yeah nice catch well so the other thing that’s coming up for me is I think that there is a like a really big mental changeover that happens when people understand it’s just like several of the building blocks you’re referring to and then change from being a person who um considers the right thing to do in a relationship to be you know this like making sure the other person isn’t mad kind of niceness right yeah to being the kind of person who’s like the really compassionate thing to do here is to say what’s real for me even if that makes them upset making them not upset would be things like walking on eggshells uh caretaking them doing things for them that build resentment for you bending what you want to because they’ll be happier Etc and all that does in a relationship is continue to create resentment and a sense of obligation and then in a sexual relationship that resentment becomes very kind of Parental child like one’s As a caretaker and then the sex dies it’s like it’s a horrible Loop and so when everybody is in these horrible relationships and they’re like well I’ve given everything that I can give to this person and they still don’t you know blah blah blah tried and or you know I don’t know what I have to do to make her happy or him happy or it’s like be yourself like and the only thing that people aren’t trying is like just be yourself be authentic show up as you and don’t don’t try to change them I do think a trap that people fall into is feeling like but I authentically want them to be happy though right right but that’s not right that’s beautifully put so that’s trying to change somebody like the in a relationship that the state that creates the most freedom in my system is where I can love the person unconditionally that I don’t need them to be different than what they are and obviously that Ebbs and flows to different level levels of subtlety but the and that’s why a boundary I’m not defining a boundary as you have to do this because that’s changing them it’s just saying what you’re gonna do and if you’re not capable of loving somebody for who they are then what that really means is that you’re uncapable incapable of loving that part of yourself I really want them to be happy means I can’t love my own sadness I really want them to be you know more faithful to me is it’s like it’s like there’s some part of yourself that can’t love either and or your your desires that are outside of the relationship or the love yourself in a way that you can get what you deserve so all of it is just this reflection anytime you want someone else to be different it’s a reflection of a way you can’t love yourself and this is where it gets really confusing with boundaries is that people hear that and they go oh so if I love them then I’ll accept that no you might not you might be like I love you just the way you are I understand that you need to have um you know sexual relations that don’t work for me but they don’t work for me so if you’re going to have sexual relationships in this way outside of our relationship then I love you but I’m not in the relationship that’s not the relationship I want yeah and so it’s not trying to change them it’s just being clear about how you’re going to respond and being authentic and truthful to yourself in that well so that raises another question for me is it ever appropriate to try to change someone uh I don’t I don’t appropriate means it kind of assumes like a right or wrong it’s incredibly ineffective and it doesn’t create happiness for anybody yeah I mean even in the work that I do where I’m working with somebody where apparently I’m creating transformation for people I I won’t do it unless there’s a question and I won’t impose my ideas on if somebody wants help transforming their lives great help them but to impose your idea it’s incredibly hubris it’s incredible to think that like oh I I know what’s better for the person and more specifically than that is every way that you want somebody else to change is really just a reflection of a way that you don’t want to feel right because they do that thing and it makes me feel X right so if it’s like if every time somebody yelled at you you felt like a million bucks you really wouldn’t care if they yelled at you right if every time somebody um was late to dinner it made you feel loved and adored you’d be like cool be late to dinner so what’s really happening is that you’re saying I don’t want to feel a certain way and you’re making me feel it so you’re holding them emotionally responsible which is totally disempowering to yourself to yourself right and you’re trying to control them which is disempowering to them it’s just a horrible situation and so take responsibility for your own emotions and the best way to do that is to say how am I going to respond it sounds like you’re mostly exploring this in terms of interpersonal relationships like romantic relationships but I imagine this comes up a lot in a work context and The Traps seem similar it’s like somebody’s like feeling like they really need this job but you really want them to be different if they’re going to be on the team yes so I will say that if you look at the way that the boundaries are held whether it’s the way Martin Luther King held boundaries or a great CEO how boundaries or hold you how you how you hold in a work context or in a love relationship it’s the principles are very much the same the thing about a work context is that at some point there is like this moment of control of like I’m going to fire you I’m going to let you go um which is really not this is what I’m gonna do it I am going to fire you is what I’m going to do but it has like you are forcing somebody out of a situation apparently forcing them out usually when people are clear about their boundaries up front there is no firing of anybody they just leave and it’s really clear and we’ve talked about this Brett and I that like the last four five people that have we’ve let go in our company literally I go to have the walk with them to say this isn’t working and they they say it’s time for me to go it’s like oddly like disturbingly the case I had some client recently asked me was like is that because you’re too slow letting people go and made me think about that um but it feels like it’s the right time for me it feels like it’s the right time for them and it’s because I’m constantly drawing these boundaries saying hey like this is this is the expectation and if this can’t happen then this is this is what’s going to occur and so and this is what I’m going to do to respond to it I’m very clear about my own wants and I’m very clear about expectations and so it usually doesn’t come down to that but that’s the the unique part of the work stuff is to is that you can eventually say you’re fired or be fired but the thing for the person who’s having the boundary drawn is there’s it’s always about the fear of a consequence that prevents somebody from drawing the boundary and so I can’t say that to my boss because they might fire me I can’t say that to my lover because they might leave I can’t right which is basically I can’t be myself and be accepted here is really what you’re saying or I’m scared and the interesting thing about that reflection is it’s usually based on their projection of the way the world works a great example of this is I get a conversation with people a lot that goes something to the effect of I think I’m going to quit my job I think I’m going to break up and I’ll say well what’s wrong and they’ll talk about it I’m like well what if you were just yourself let’s see what happens so since you’re gonna quit and you’re going to break up anyways like we just assume that it’s already lost so why don’t you just show up exactly how you want to be at work and see what happens and literally eight out of 10 times they get promoted they get raises they their relationship turned up great twenty percent of the time they get fired they’re like yeah you know and nope that’s really not what they wanted but eight eighty percent of the time it was their projection of the world that they were scared of not actually the world and and for the 20 that have gone fired none of them are like oh fuck I got fired they did what they did instead was they’re like oh or I got or I got broken up with but they’re like oh this is how I want to be that means this is the kind of company I want to work for yeah so we’re scared of the consequence but whatever the consequence is it is a direct path to the life where we are accepted and loved for who we are I love that yeah I like the way I said it I don’t think I’ve ever said it that well it just feels so good and so exciting then to set boundaries right yeah exactly until you actually go to set them and then it’s just there’s a real big scary moment often because so for instance the other thing that that’s interesting about boundaries is that they move so I and I think I’ve said this as an example so my dad was a drinker and I started with the boundary with him of I’m not going to be around you and then it was I’m not going to be around you when you’re drinking around you when you’re behaving in a certain way because of drinking and those are my boundaries and it was about me not being around him and each one of them allowed me to love him better but it was really important for me to have that really big strict boundary at the beginning of just I’m not going to be around you because I needed to convince myself that it was okay for me not to be around that person right so if there’s an abusive relationship whether it’s emotional or physical the first step is that the person has to be convinced that they don’t deserve it that it’s not their fault that they are worthy of a deeper love and and that is what helps you draw the boundary and that boundary is what confirms that and so but that moment is really scary to actually draw it the first time because you’re still not sure if you deserve that love like you you don’t know if the world’s going to provide for you because your whole life it hasn’t and so there is this great moment of fear when you’re drawing especially important big boundaries is I this big feeling of vulnerability because you’re you’re testing to see if the world is going to work the way that that your projections say it’s going to work and if it doesn’t then man your whole self-definition has to has to bend and be reshaped and so it gets scary so it’s actually scary either way it’s scary if your boundary is sort of yeah and it also means that you have to grieve the fact that you’ve been living under a cage that was never there right and who you think you were and what you define yourself as yeah boundaries and apologies are some of the most effective change agents for for healing transformation because it it’s their like direct tests about what how you see the world yeah and when your model of the world changes so many things can change can we really feel really destabilizing even though it’s growthful and if your model of the world changes then inevitably your model of yourself that I did what you how you limit yourself changes absolutely yeah yeah so right before we did this you said to me there’s like really there was just one question that everybody was asking yeah on the online they’re like there’s lots of people were asking questions about boundaries but one there’s kind of one question what is the one question that they’re all so it takes two forms the one the question the rose to the top was what is the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum ah yeah and the other one is just how do you know if you’re setting good boundaries which I think are basically the same thing yeah but it’s nice that they’re reflected in two different ways because the second one I think we’ve answered pretty well it’s like you’re not asking them to change and you’re and you’re and it increases your love the not asking them to change can still feel like an ultimatum and it can still be a power over them but not if it increases your capacity to love and so the ultimatum part is it’s really when our boundaries sound like ultimatums it means that we’re really scared that we’re operating out of the fear because we’re trying to control the other person in One Way or Another and so there’s a subtlety of it and I think you heard it in my first example of a boundary which was and I’ll be gone for 30 minutes and I will call you then and if you’re able to not what I’m doing there is I’m not abandoning the person and so oftentimes if you are going to stick with the it increases your love and it’s not what they’re going to do to just completely make sure that you’re not creating an ultimatum that you’re not in a power struggle you want to make sure that there’s no abandonment in it either um an abandonment this is a weird thing because the abandonment is is like doesn’t mean that you’re going to be there for them but it does mean that you they have a choice to get back into connection with you so the choice is don’t yell at me and then we can be in connection if you say I’m done with your yelling I’m leaving it’s it’s a boundary you it’s not going to increase your capacity to love them and it can be very much in power over a situation but if you leave that opening that says hey you know I will do business with you in the future if you know this and this and this happen then there’s a door open there’s a way for that to to continue now sometimes it’s really necessary to not give an opening both for your own healing or you know so for instance if I saw somebody embezzled money from me there wouldn’t be like a and when you can show that you’re honest again I will be open and reflective it’s just I don’t want to do business with anybody who stole from me and so that’s a choice I get to make and I’m going to make it and is that an ultimate I’m absolutely it’s an ultimatum it’s not even an ultimatum there’s not even a choice there’s just like leave or I’m leaving and I think that’s absolutely fine as well but notice in that case I’m not kind of trying to control them I’m just saying this isn’t a relationship I want to be a part of so the prince of the underlying principle is the same I’m still not trying to control another person I might try to try to control them to get my money back from the embezzlement um and again but that that’s not the boundary so I’m I wonder are you saying that boundaries are never a way to try to control someone or change someone correct that’s right that’s a false errand yeah I want to ask what makes it a Fool’s errand it was the the things we talked about before um the idea that it’s not empowering to you and it’s not empowering to them and there’s a great saying it’s like moving a mountain or changing a man I’d rather move a mountain it’s easier yeah yeah so there are there are some things that come up in life where I mean I think a work context is a really good one or like you’re on a team with someone you have a shared project a shared resource of some kind maybe you’re living together in a group house and you’re both paying into the lease and so if to leave is like very disruptive to both of your lives how do you set boundaries in those kinds of situations that aren’t ultimatums so give me a specific example and then we’ll we’ll see if we can come up with it let’s try a couple of iterations of this because I’m not sure if I have come up with a good one there was one that was on my mind earlier in this conversation that was like in a work context if you’re like I’m constantly triggered that you like I something like that you’re defensive like I can’t work with your defensiveness right and that’s about them but at a certain point if if you have power to be like we just can’t work on this team together so in that context there’s first like kind of the view conversation before any boundary is necessary to just learn right it’s like okay so I noticed that certain things are hap when certain things happen you get defensive what does that mean for you what what’s triggering that how do you see me in those moments like so there’s a whole bunch of conversations so you can just start to understand the defensiveness there’s also like I’ve seen CEOs do this uh with their executive team it’s like oh wow you’re being defensive we’ve talked about that I need you to uh leave the conversation until you can come back in a non-defensive way and will and will make decisions without you the thing is like you need to leave the conversation is it’s something like I said that you can do that at work which is interesting but the non-version of that is I’m I don’t want to engage in a conversation with you like if this is in a house I don’t want to engage in a conversation with you that’s defensive so I’m totally happy to re-engage with you when this conversation isn’t defensive and which point they’ll probably say I’m not being defensive and um that would be the typical response to that and then you would say it feels very much like it’s defensive to me right now and I don’t want to engage in that you don’t have to justify you’re not going to get into a court of law with the person because you get the choice to whether you’re going to engage in a defensive conversation or not you know that’s the choice that you get to make yeah the other thing that I love about what you’re saying is like I’m realizing that any probably any need want could be expressed in terms of a boundary yeah but that’s just not like usually the best tool for every kind of interaction It’s usually the last case scenario tool and it usually means there’s some place like that can use some healing in you too but sometimes the boundary is the best way to heal it so it’s an interesting Paradox there it you know so if someone it’s usually someplace where someone gets really triggered so if somebody’s defensive with me for instance I might ask about it I might laugh at it I might promote it you know I might be like I’d be like you know with a big smile on my face go absolutely not that’s not true at all that’s you know like and I like and I like because I don’t really if someone gets defensive to the most part I don’t really mind I I notice I get a little trigger when people are defense defensive if it like shuts down a group because I noticed that like when someone’s defensive in a group it shuts down the group and that’ll actually get me a little bit more but one-on-one it it doesn’t and and so it’s usually something in that that like if you can’t play with it there’s something in you that needs to oh I don’t have to be around defensive people I don’t have to do that and as soon as you know you don’t have to then the boundary immediately changes and becomes like more nuanced yeah like so with my dad it was I’m not going to be around you and then once I realize that oh I don’t have to be around as drinking but but I miss my dad I like to be around my dad okay I’m gonna be around my dad just not while he’s drinking oh I don’t really mind that he’s drinking as long as he’s not being a prick okay you know but I had to learn that I could not be around a string and that’s why the boundary was such like a huge tool um another example of this for me was when I was you know earlier on when I was teaching and coaching I felt like I I held a little bit too much responsibility for other people and so when people started to like not trust the process I would feel like responsible to make sure that they were taken care of I had to draw the boundary of like oh if you don’t trust the process then I’m not in the process with you anymore and that’s not because I don’t love you it’s because the process doesn’t work if there’s no trust I’m happy to address the trust I’m happy to have whatever conversation we need to have but if there’s no trust on your side they would be as stupid as me continuing the process if I didn’t trust that you could transform that would be ridiculous like the you like the trust needs to be there and I had to draw that boundary with several clients to get to the point where now it that boundary gets drawn so early that it never seems to get to that point anymore right where it’s just so early like oh I see that there’s not trust here and and that doesn’t I don’t want to work like that and then they’ll be like oh okay well this is why I don’t trust you great and then we’re talking about whereas before it was okay what do I have to do to help them it would just never worked oh interesting that brings up another question that I had and I don’t know see if you want to go into this or not um but it was from what you were saying earlier I wondered is resentment always a pointer to a boundary that’s not being drawn yeah there’s two ways to think about resentment one of the ways is to say that you’re trying to it’s a really good indicator that you’re trying to save other people in the in the fear triangle it’s like the Savior holds a lot of the resentment and obligation and what that really is is that you’re trying to make your world The Way You Want It by Saving other people by making sure other people are happy and so there’s a lot of resentment that gets built there and so absolutely there’s a boundary that they’re not drawing right the thing about a savior is that a savior tries to make the other person happy instead of having the boundary of you know this is how I want to be around you but to see every time you resent it as a boundary that’s a boundary that needs to be drawn can be a little bit dangerous because it uses like the Bazooka of the tools pretty early instead of just saying like I don’t want to do that you know I don’t want to do the dishes you know every night I want or I want to do the dishes together I would love to do the dishes with you right and so there’s so many places where resentment is just an indicator also just what are the wants that you haven’t expressed what’s the vision of the world that you want to live in that you haven’t expressed because you don’t think you can get it so which is like you said another way to say that it’s like a boundary but it might not need to be a like a kablamo boundary it can just be like a what I really want is for us to enjoy doing the dishes together and have fun doing dishes together instead of why aren’t you doing the dishes you know or if you don’t do the dishes and I’m not going to do the dishes and there’s so many solutions to the problem I on the dish thing I just I always love this I always think about this particular example um there’s a guy I know who lived with his um friends and none of them want to do to do the dishes and it was like all this hardship in the dishes and so this was their solution to the problem after sitting down and like everybody’s saying what they wanted they went and got two huge Rubbermaid trash cans and they filled them with like water and a little bit of bleach and they went to the like Goodwill and they bought all the cheap dishes they could buy and they every time they were done with their dishes they just put them in these two Rubbermaid trash cans outside with all the bleach and uh like once a month they would like put soap in and like wash it with like a sprayer and like they all did dishes once a month on the driveway I mean kind of gross but also awesome like there’s like there’s that many solutions to the dish problem that is like haunting half of the marriages in the United States you know what I mean and instead we sit there and try to control each other it’s it’s kind of silly yeah yeah one thing that’s really coming up for me in this discussion is the idea that um because I am really like worried about or I should really say triggered by what I see as sort of the weaponization of the concept of boundaries me too I think it happens a lot around sort of the periphery I guess of these communities yeah um it keeps coming up for me in this conversation like oh how could I how could I talk about this but that example is pointing at something that I think is going on with a lot of the weaponization of boundaries is sort of like somebody has decided that they know the way yes I know how to fix this problem I’m having a problem I know what the solution is so I’m going to say that this is my boundary so that you do it the way that I want you to do it right yeah and so there’s like a little bit of a lack of ownership of what it is that they want that if you could lead instead with the what you want or what your need is you know that maybe there’s a much larger solution space that’s possible yeah and and oftentimes what I notice in modern society is it’s around like they’ll use safety as the thing the boundary will be about safety so it’ll be I don’t feel safe and therefore everybody has to change to make me feel safe and there’s a way in which having people feel safe is really great and important and it allows us all to thrive and there is a way in which life is inherently unsafe and so if you want other people if other people if you need other people to make you feel safe you will never feel safe the only way you can feel safe is to learn how to create safety for yourself and obviously don’t go live in a war zone because it’s unsafe right so it’s like this interesting what seems like a paradox um and so what I notice is with all of these things something let’s say safety safety becomes a way to control others and boundaries can become a way to control others and and oftentimes you’ll notice in those boundaries they’re asking someone to be different they’re asking them to do a different Behavior and the reason the psychological reason behind that is so you’ll see this everywhere is that the abused becomes the abuser and it seems like it’s a Natural Evolution for people to move out of an abuse cycle um but you’ll see it in countries countries that got deeply abused then start abusing and you’ll see it in kids who were abused often abuse their kids or kids that are bullied at home bully at school like you’ll see this kind of passing down of the abuse cycle and that’s what happens is like as somebody is feeling disempowered they think the way to get to empowerment is to control other people and and then they use well I would call it topping from the bottom they they use their victimhood as a way to dominate other people and empowerment isn’t as we’ve discussed in early in these podcasts empowerment is being yourself despite the consequences you don’t you never feel empowerment by having power because power can be taken away from you so there’s no way that you feel safe because you have enough power you know I I know billionaires who don’t feel safe I know you know heads of state that don’t feel safe so safety empowerment is that internal understanding that I’m going to be truthful despite the consequences so I think that’s that’s where that stems from is that the that they’re still in the power cycle they’re just trying to get the power instead of being powered over but but the solution is empowerment and that’s why something like Gandhi worked for the time that it was working um or Martin Luther King is because that those movements were about empowerment the the movements weren’t about having power over somebody else and when you see the movements are we want to have power over somebody else that’s when one group of dictators gets replaced with another group of dictators with a different philosophy but it’s the and it’s the same thing as one abuser gets replaced with another abuser inside of a relationship two different pathways are presenting themselves in my mind yeah so one is if you find yourself on the receiving end of gosh or the giving end if you find yourself in a dynamic where there’s sort of this tapping from the bottom kind of use of safety or boundaries how do you respond it’s actually a really tricky one in a in a context of of coaching I I’ll say you seem pissed tell me all about it like I will elicit the anger that’s underneath it if that doesn’t elicit the anger underneath it I will call them out in such a way that um that shows that the victim that that they’re topping from the bottom and then they really do get pissed so um you’ll notice that anybody who’s doing that kind of like um aggressive what I call the aggressive victim stance and you call them out on it they get really pissed at you then then they get really and then you get to see what’s really Underneath It All Which is far more beautiful for me than that in a business context and a non-coaching context if I see that that’s what’s happening I will um I’ll call it out I’ll call it out I’ll say something to the effect of like um I don’t want to be in a power Dynamic with you and I and I don’t agree to be your bully I don’t agree to be the person who’s oppressing you I’ll just say it directly like that like I’m not going to buy into a situation where you’re not empowered and able to do what you want to do and I’m not able empowered to do what I want to do and I’m not interested in any relationship where we’re trying to change each other kind of sounds like a boundary yeah it’s just exactly and what happens to the dynamic um sometimes people get angry or leave or we we’re not in an interaction anymore and sometimes people see the freedom in it and they’re like a deep loyalty and trust is born because we’re meeting each other as humans not as objects to be controlled not as ways to achieve power with each other in teams it’s incredibly amazing you see teams where there’s an idea that there’s some power structure there’s a control structure and there should be an organization meaning that some people need to be in control of certain decisions and make those decisions or man nothing ever happens but if there’s the power dynamics where there’s fear happening and then people are trying to feel safe through having power over or influence over other people you’ll just see that that’s just a super dysfunctional team they get pretty functional and but they die quick and it doesn’t last very long yeah you have to have a really good product in high margins and good patents to pull off a business like um the thing I noticed you didn’t talk about was like in an interpersonal non-coaching relationship like a romantic relationship a shared house I I don’t I don’t tend to have relationships with people who like to top from the bottom um in the in my personal World but let me just think yeah the last time that that happened I eventually created separation I eventually said like in that particular case I talked about it and then they weren’t wanting to or willing to see it I think it’s really hard for someone who’s in the aggressive victim thing for them to see that that’s what’s happening because they’re so defined as the victim it’s very hard for them to see that they’re that that it’s very hard if they stop putting you in the oppressor roll it’s really really hard for them to see that they might might be the abuser in the situation or be might be part of the abuse cycle in the situation and it happened that those abuses can be really subtle it can be like you know it’s usually the aggressive victim does things like shows up late all the time or says the little snarky comment in front of other folks or um refuses to change while we agreed that this is how it’s going to be so I’m never going to change on this topic like um there’s all sorts of little things that they do they become incredibly indecisive to so that the other person can’t move freely there’s all sorts of things but all but our society so much sees those people as the victim that needs to be saved whereas the person who’s yelling and doing that kind of thing or who’s like come on God damn it like without they’re the bad guy and so there’s like a societal Norm that makes one of them that guy I’m one of them the victim and the poor person poor person who’s this is being done too so I just don’t I don’t usually interact with either bullies or victims very much on a personal life in a personal life so I have a question that coming directly off of this sounds one way and the other way it sounds is like how can we somatically tell in ourselves whether we’re having a good boundary or not so the way it sounds off of this topic is like okay say you find yourself in a situation where you are in that fear where you have been I don’t know maybe using boundaries badly or you’re tempted to use a boundary badly yeah um to control someone you know what do you do though there’s the feeling of fear there’s a feeling of expansion when the boundaries creates deeper love so the somatically you will feel that love you will feel that expansion so that’s how you know it for your first question and then the second question is um play experiment do bad boundaries and when you do them say I’m sorry I was trying to control you that’s not how I want to be with you like you’re not going to get it perfect so it off mess it up screw up blah blah blah and then apologize and and let that apology be one without shame that’s heartfelt and then it’ll be harder and harder for you to do bad boundaries apologies are really useful that way if you really give a heartfelt non-shame based apology it’s a great way to modify Behavior so yeah it’s just like we all are going to mess up we’re all gonna get scared and we’re gonna think we’re drawing a boundary that we’re actually trying to control somebody else but it’s amazing if you can say to somebody I noticed I was trying to control you and that’s not what I want to do it’s not the relationship I want to be in with you how much people want to hear that and how much trust that builds yeah I feel like boundaries can can be really inspiring so is there a story you know of of where you know somebody coming into their empowerment and setting a boundary had you know beautiful results yeah it’s not I don’t have a story I have like infinite stories of this I cannot tell you how many people this this story happened has happened to which is they’re in a relationship they’ve fully bought into the fact that they’re responsible for somebody else’s emotional state that they’re they’re constantly looking what did I do what do I need to learn to make this relationship better and then they draw the boundary and the relationship just immediately either ends or changes like it just either immediately the relationship is done and they’re free of um I remember we had somebody here living on the property and my relationship with that person was good and um and my wife’s relationship was not and she didn’t feel good that she could you know put my relationship with this person in damage or didn’t feel like she had the right to ask or blah blah and then literally the moment she did it the person was like off the property and I felt relief and she felt relief and I’m sure the person who left you know felt relief as well so I I can’t tell you how many times that it’s either gone that way or the person who has been kind of the abuser feels the relief is like oh good I don’t want that relationship either just the other day I was talking to a client and she was saying she had a good friend and I remembered the story from like two years ago and it was just kind of this passive aggressive shitty friendship but they had been friends for so long and and at some point you know the woman said like came to her and said um I’ve been caretaking you and I’m not gonna caretake you anymore I’m gonna be really honest and straightforward with you and there’s a way in which you’ve been mean to me like you resentful of me and I don’t understand why or how you could be resentful to me but I don’t want a relationship where we have resentment I don’t I’m not I don’t want to be a part of that and their relationship like just from that single conversation completely transformed and they are and the woman who it was said to she said you know I was angry at you and I just couldn’t tell why I didn’t know what was going on but as soon as you said that to me it just all dropped like I was resentful for the caretaking and I just like you weren’t treating me like an equal and now that we are it’s like it’s just wonderful I can’t tell you how many like that happens all the time it really makes you question is it is the thing about the boundary that’s scariest the freedom that we get on the other side yeah yeah there we go the whole thing that came up for me that I still I don’t know how to handle it um was around when I was living in this group house and um there was some tension with me in another housemate and then a a different housemate than that was like I can’t have this kind of tension in my house I need you to fix this or else I’m gonna leave and that’s just my boundary it was a boundary that wasn’t done out of love but it was done without trying to control you guys which is interesting right right yeah I find it really complicated and um what I was noticing during our talk is like okay well one of the things that was sort of happening there is like well it was really constricted and like I know that I when I come at people with constriction around my wants it doesn’t land well yeah and that that’s I think that’s how the boundary and the whole thing of like that’s just my boundary got used there was like so be that person for a minute and I’ll be I will just like kind of set the how I would potentially handle it okay okay so you’re we’ll call you Joan yeah okay so you’re Alexa yeah I’m Alexa yeah okay yeah I just got a lot more attractive yeah but also now your name is a trigger word for everybody else okay can you turn down the music Okay so Alexa there’s just so much tension in this household right now and it just makes me feel really unsafe I can’t be like planning a future with people who are going to have this much tension and I know you can fix it and I just I really need you to fix it or else I’m gonna leave I can’t stay in this kind of a household right it is a ton of tension and it sucks and I don’t want it either and I don’t know if I know how to fix it I really appreciate your confidence in me to be able to fix it and I would love any insight you have that would allow me to fix it and not feel like I am like I am compromising who I am in the process I already feel a difference like from how I responded where I was also constricted like no to put all this on me it’s not on me their fear in that moment Their Fear was that their their boundary wasn’t going to get respected that they had to be firm or they were going to be run over that was their fear and so as soon as I feel that fear in somebody I can just I can empathize with that fear and be like yeah and I can I let them know that they’re seen wow it’s great I mean the other thing that was going on for me I’m just noticing is like yeah foreign judging myself in real time right now is feeling like well that’s not fair like tension happens you know it’s your it’s your own trauma and it’s your own story that’s causing it to feel unsafe to you and it’s not my it’s not my job to like fix it for you that’s right all that is really really true hmm and I appreciate that but I wish I could respond in a way that’s just like so like you know yours is so like oh I really love how much Faith you have in me or I’m like I can’t do that I can’t aren’t they all right I know you can fix it I mean that is faith in you and so maybe your authenticity in that moment needs to also say and I definitely don’t want to fix this tension to make you happy yeah I want to fix this I do want to fix this tension but I definitely don’t want to fix this tension to make you happy and I definitely don’t want to feel like I have to keep you happy to keep you to stay because that would just be a crappy relationship it would be so much resentment yes absolutely so and that’s the thing like what what you heard what I said you’re like ah something and you relaxed and then something and you was still like and listening to that eh is the way that you get to that the next level of clarity oh yeah but there’s still something there it’s like and then how do you say that in an undefended way of not trying to change them ah yeah yeah it’s really good so to tie this back into the podcast recording that we just did like at the very end your examples of great boundaries seemed kind of I was surprised it seems kind of scary you’re like yeah it was great it ended that relationship that person left and my experience of boundaries especially through work with you is things that are a lot more subtle it’s Brett kind of has a boundary with me of like I need you to not stop me from base jumping you know not try to stop me and I’m like okay I was gonna ask that question at the beginning your boundaries are on base jumping well one that came out well that’s you immediately that’s what he’s asking you to do something and one that came out for me from that is like like I want to be supportive of you and also I’m not gonna shut down my fear and my feelings you know to make you feel safe yeah great and stating that boundary felt like oh there’s so much more openness here like I can be who I am and how I am but it’s not it’s not like as it’s scary it’s scary to say but it’s not as scary as your examples yeah I gave extreme examples your examples that example is beautiful I love that example I hope to use it in the future great yeah and and it felt to me a minute ago that there was something that was stitching all this together it sounds to me like something that’s emerging for me from this conversation boundaries actually are pretty scary for a lot of people to set and to hear and then those boundaries that you are coming to an interaction with a lot of constriction have more potential I think for something kind of damaging because like what ended up happening with my house is that I did kind of shut down in this way of like well if you’re coming at me like that like I don’t it makes me actually not want this relationship and not want this household to work and it did fall apart I mean they left and right and that’s the love thing that’s the like oh immediately puts me into more love no matter what their response is that’s what that pointer is indicating is to drop the defense it’s like that if you if you draw a boundary as a form of like is a way to defend yourself you’re in you’re in the fight you’re in the back and forth you’re in the the fear triangle you’re in the power dynamic and it’s that fear that and it might be a really good pointer to put into it which is the the fear is that there’s this fear that I’m not gonna be able to hold my boundary that really really makes boundaries come up wonky as yeah yeah you’re absolutely right yeah if you 100 knew that it’s like oh I’m not gonna put up with this you know like I’m not I don’t want to live with this kind of fighting and you are 100 sure of it and you knew you deserved it it would sound like this hey guys I don’t want to live with this like and so how do we fix it so I don’t have to and so I don’t have to leave because I really love being with you guys otherwise yeah I really think there’s something to that yeah which is ties into that it’s the internal work to like feel empowered and to know that you’re worth it it all it all like once you really feel empowered and you really trust yourself that you can stay at a boundary and it doesn’t even land in anyone as a boundary correct and you don’t want to say that to people because then they’re gonna give have an excuse never to say they’re boundary because it they still well once I figure it out because especially the people who have a hard time drawing the boundaries are the people who think they have to be perfect all the time to be valuable enough to have a boundary yeah yeah I definitely see your point there yeah so you gotta practice it but there’s still thing right like the the people who are saying something like and that’s just my boundary right then that’s a pointer that there’s something constricted there yeah that they’re scared I mean it’s all fear if you can see it all as fear then like everybody’s boundary and your own boundary is just it’s just sweetness it’s like oh everyone’s scared yeah like I see a big like just dealing recently with a um high level executive and there was like this big fight in the company and as you know I kept on coming back to can you just see everybody is scared like just scared powerful people throwing big temper tantrums that’s like and as soon as you can see it man it’s just so easy to see through and navigate yeah awesome okay all right that was good thanks for listening to the art of accomplishment if you enjoyed what you heard today please subscribe and rate US on your podcast app we’d love your feedback so feel free to send us questions or comments you can reach out to us join our newsletter or check out our courses at Art 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