Summary
Joe Hudson and Brett Kistler do a deep dive into passive aggression — what it is, how it develops, how it shows up in relationships and organizations, and what to do about it. Joe defines passive aggression as covert aggression: being upset but not allowed to be angry, so finding ways to attack that don’t fully admit to being an attack. It develops when children aren’t allowed to express anger directly and learn to get their needs met through indirect means.
The conversation covers a wide range of passive aggressive behaviors — guilt-tripping, talking behind someone’s back, chronic lateness, saying you’ll do something and not doing it, needling, sarcasm, withdrawal of love, confusion, and even positive self-talk that denies genuine feelings. Joe shares a story about his mother’s subtle needling that made his daughters want to yell at her within two days, illustrating how passive aggression invites active aggression from others.
They explore how passive aggression destroys relationships and organizations over time through accumulated resentment and eggshell-walking. Joe argues it’s actually harder to recover a relationship from passive aggression than from direct aggression, because the problem can’t be acknowledged. The episode offers practical guidance: don’t try to change the passive aggressive person, own your experience (“ouch”), draw boundaries, move the anger yourself (not at anyone), and recognize that being triggered by passive aggression means you have your own passive aggression to address.
Key Concepts
- Passive aggression is aggression that isn’t being owned as aggression
- Passive aggression develops when direct anger is forbidden
- Passive aggression invites active aggression from others
- Withdrawal of love is a form of passive aggression
- Trying to change someone’s passive aggression enters the same dynamic
- Cultures of niceness breed passive aggression
- Owning your wants and asking directly dissolves passive aggression
- Positive self-talk can be a form of self-directed passive aggression
Key Quotes
“Passive aggression is just simply covert aggression. It’s basically aggression that’s not being owned as aggression.”
“If you really want to see someone go from passive aggression to aggression, take away their victim role.”
“Wherever there’s a really aggressive person, there’s a passive aggressive relationship going on.”
“I think it’s far easier to get a functional work or marriage out of aggression than it is out of passive aggression.”
“A lot of passive aggression stops when somebody feels like oh I can just ask for what I want.”
“Write down a list of all the people that you subtly blame and for what. Then find out how you’re being aggressive to them.”
Transcript
when we allow ourselves to be aggressive to ourselves then we allow almost in kind other people to be that aggressive with us we expect it and it’s okay of course we’re living with it every day why would we think it’s not okay as we learn to love ourselves as we say no that kind of selft talk that kind of internal relationship is not okay I’m not living with that then we’re not going to accept it from the outside world so we do we do a lot of work with anger and one thing that I’ve seen you say a lot of times in courses or even in a coaching session is like let’s make the passive aggression active let’s like really bring it forward and so we’ve we’ve done a lot of talking about about anger and how to move that aggression and I want to now take this episode and go into the passive aggression and and just really work with that and see what it is how does it show up in people’s lives how how can they find it one of the things with passive aggression is it’s kind of hidden it’s kind of under the surface so at least at least that’s the idea I want to really go into the kind of the nitty-gritty into the subtlety how’s that sound sounds great I would love that awesome let’s do it so just to start with I want to really just Define our term what is how do you define passive aggression the form of aggression that triggered me for the longest period of time in my life I think uh yeah wow um passive aggression is just it’s simply you could I mean you can almost call it covert aggression um but it’s it’s basically aggression that’s not being owned as aggression not sometimes not by the person who’s doing it sometimes not by the person who it’s being done to but it’s basically I’m upset but I’m not allowed to be angry and therefore I’m going to be passively angry so I’m going to figure out a way to attack you that isn’t fully admitting to myself or to somebody else uh that it’s an attack and and that that’s what it is and it’s and it’s typically based in fear and the fact that it’s passive is typically based in the fear of being outwardly aggressive about something got it so the the difference between passive and active aggression is in some sense the owning of it the yeah it’s it’s the recognition some people can own passive aggression but they’re still going to hide it um it’s it’s how good you with your own anger your own aggression your to some degree your own ambition um like the more that you’re able to be in love with those aspects of yourself the less likely it’s going to be that you’re going to be passive in your aggression so what what would be the difference then if the definition there is of like is around the awareness around the owning of it what’s the difference between passive aggression and somebody who’s like just like straight up screaming and they’re not even aware that they’re mad like I’m not mad you’re mad what’s the distinction there from passive aggression too that that form yeah that’s great yeah so the passive aggression is going to find ways that are not direct at the aggression so I’m not mad you’re mad blah blah blah that’s very that’s very direct it’s like boom here you are Bam Bam Bam you’re you’re the problem I’m not the problem that kind of a thing passive aggression is like guilt guilt’s a perfect example of passive aggression yeah I am going to try to manipulate you needle you which is an aggressive act I’m going to try to get you to do something but I’m going to do it in a way that I look like I’m the victim and often times not all but oftentimes in passive aggression the person who’s doing it is uh is in the role of the victim like I’m stuck woe is me I can’t can’t be me doing it like you know I’m I’m the one that’s being hurt here and and if you really want to see someone go from passive aggression to aggression like take away their victim role like and I we can talk about that later but that’s the thing is that it’s very much uh not direct and so guilt is a great example of passive aggression because you’re trying you’re being aggressive in the fact that you’re trying to change somebody that you’re trying to be tell them how to be or make them be a particular way but you’re not doing it with any kind of ownership at all you’re not saying hey I I want you to be this way or God damn it I’m going to yell at you if you’re not this way it’s like you know it’s like that yeah so kind of what I’m hearing there is that if like the act of aggression is I want to change you and I’m aware of it and that’s like what I’m clear as happening and the passive aggression is I’m trying to change you or get you to do something and pretend that I’m not like I don’t want you to see that I’m trying to do this to to change you yeah yeah and maybe they don’t even see it themselves and sometimes they do like sometimes you know mothers will sit around and talk about how good of guilt Trippers they are and some people will guilt trip you and they won’t even know that they’re um that they’re doing it or they’ll be you know be hidden from them that they’re doing it right or they’ll think that yeah I’m doing it but it’s my only choice you know there’ll be like those kinds of thought processes that happen yeah what’s interesting to me about it is that typically if a child was raised with passive aggression it’s incredibly hard for them to see that it’s happening to them mhm so like if so if if Mom’s guilt tripping them they’re going to feel like they’ve done something wrong and Mom has is like wo is me poor victim like has something bad has happened to her that they’re selfish and that it’s very hard for them to see like oh actually my mom’s being aggressive yeah you know just in a passive form my mom’s manipulating me in a passive form my mom is attacking me in a passive form yeah and so of course that can continue on into adulthood as well so now my next question is like what are what are some examples of passive aggressive behavior that we might encounter in our everyday life including some examples people might not expect they’ve been swimming in it uh guilt talking about somebody behind their back certain in a in a way that has some mou like there’s ways of talking about somebody and being like I’m processing this so that I can fall in love with them more but if you’re if you’re or I can learn to like them or resolve my own issue but if you’re talking about them as a way to like turn somebody’s opinion on them or to make yourself above them or just prove that you’re better than or whatever then that’s like an incredible form of passive aggression being late uh can be a form of passive aggression um particularly Perpetual lateness particularly Perpetual lateness for a particular kind of person right like that I know people that are always on time but always late for their mother as an example MH um saying you’re going to do something and not doing it uh is another one um confusion can be one where like you never give the answer you always get confused and so the person playing down it’s like needling is another one just like little small sarcasms little undermining things is another great example of ways to be passive aggress aggressive in fact I have a story about this this is like a lovely story so my mom and dad they had a relationship where my dad yelled and my mom was like apparently the victim and and she would feel like why did I put up with this or why am I putting up with this but she would just like kind of constantly stay and and then my dad died and my mom came up to the house and my girls after like two days looked at me and they’re like why do I want to yell at your mom like they’re like like it’s so strange that like I we don’t want to yell at anybody but we want to yell at your mom like what’s going on there and I’m like yeah my mom’s needling you my mom’s like giving you these little itty bitty Jabs that you can hardly tell they’re happening like dick dick dick dick dick and then pretty soon you get like really frustrated and and so she’s inviting your aggression with her passive aggression and that’s that was the thing that was happening in almost all relationship where there’s somebody who’s really aggressive there’s a passive aggressive relationship that’s going on and so that’s a like perfect example of it and it’s so subtle that my kids couldn’t even see that they were being needled right and it was just like needling and it was comparing oh you do this but you do that it was like these little comparisons that were happening and yeah it’s a it’s an example I think that can especially happen in a relationship with somebody that you love or that you want to love you want there to be you want to feel love from them and so you kind of just kind of plow under those little needles and just like oh they didn’t mean that or that’s not with them like seeing seeing the good in them but not really seeing necessarily the the aggression or not not feeling the hurt right and and also yeah there’s so many things so if somebody’s in that place where they’re passive aggressive and they’re not really and you want you’re going to have to admit that to yourself for you to see that this is what’s going on one is you’re like you have to question their their love for you there’s that questioning that goes on two is if you question it there’s a good chance they’re going to get really aggressive and so to some degree it’s like right so I can either have my mom needle me or yell at me like there’s some version of that that also happens like oh what’s going to happen if I like throw away the veil like when we look at the Oz behind the curtain what’s what’s really going to go down um and then the other the other thing that you really have to do when you when you recognize that somebody is is being passive aggressive with you is to to draw a boundary that is that’s going to be uncomfortable typically and it’s going to be it’s uncomfortable there’s some boundaries that are uncomfortable because you’re scared that if I draw them I’ll get attacked and this uncomfortable boundary is typically I’m going to draw it and they’re going to deny it which is like very gasy gaslighting another form of passive aggression by the way or sometimes it’s directly aggressive but yeah so I’m going to get gaset so that’s another thing yeah yeah so you talked about the veil and that makes me just wonder like what is what is the ad aptive like purpose or uh function of passive aggression how does it how does it develop how do we develop passive aggression passive aggressive tendencies what’s what makes that serve Us in any way yeah so I don’t know about serve that’s a good question what I know is how they how they come to pass so typically what happens is somebody isn’t allowed to be aggressive in a home right so if I’m aggressive if I get angry they’re they’re going to get even angrier and you know or it doesn’t work like with my daughter and her sister my other daughter one day I was like you you’re crying but you look like you’re angry I’m sure I’ve told this story before and she’s I’m like how often are you actually you know angry when you look sad she 50% of the time I was like huh why she like because if I get angry at my sister she just hits me but if I get sad at my sister she does what I want her to do which is by the way another form of passive aggression getting sad at people is a great getting scared at people those are great forms of passive aggression where I’m basically trying to manipulate you through my emotional experience but at the same time I’m the victim I’m the one that’s hurt yeah um so so it’s an Adaptive Behavior because that aggression has to go somewhere we’re like born with a certain amount of aggression we’re born with a certain amount of anger or life is going to throw stuff at us that’s going to make us angry like that’s just the nature of life and the nature of Being Human and so if you don’t get to have that temper tantrum if you don’t get to have that anger if your girls good girls don’t get angry don’t yell then it’s going to be more and more passive aggression and like watching girls of certain cultures that’s in seventh grade it’s really apparent that they weren’t allowed to be aggressive and so there’s like this crazy amount of passive aggression of talking behind each other’s back and gossiping of making people feel small and all these subtle ways it’s all it’s all very aggressive behavior mhm you know and and it’s weird because boys they’ll hit each other it’s just I’m not saying I’m not supporting that kind of bullying but passive aggression it’s just as destructive just as bullying it’s just we don’t we don’t we as a society don’t like to look at it and go oh that’s that’s equally not acceptable or equally aggressive even or equally aggressive or equally as damaging yeah because we really buy into that the victim story of you know I and including the victim the of oh I’m I’m the one that’s hurt I’m stuck yeah so how how does passive aggression show up in in like personal relationships and work relationships like over time we’re we’re talking about right now kind of atomic instances moments of passive aggression how about like how it builds and affects a a marriage over 20 years oh yeah or or a work culture kills it kills kills both of them I would I think it’s far easier to get a functional work or marriage out of aggression than it is out of passive aggression so it’s it’s usually why when we’re talking to people were like oh hey can you make that passive aggression into aggressive that’s the reason is because once you actually see the problem and everybody can acknowledge the problem then it’s easier to fix MH so typically somebody feels like they can’t be aggressive with their wants they can’t get angry and so some another person in the relationship feels like they can’t be aggressive with their wants can the first person gets resentful and so they start doing all these passive aggressive things in response to in response to the person getting their needs met or whatever it is and so there’s just like this undermining thing that happens um great example this is that um so I know this couple that’s been married for gosh 20 years or some some something like that and the man and the couple the woman is like the PowerHouse and the man you know feels like isn’t getting his needs or wants met and so whatever the the woman wants he just doesn’t do it he says he’s going to do it but he doesn’t like hey there’s that like broken down car in the front and it’s like yeah I I’ll take care of it and then two weeks later nothing’s been taken care of and she’s like starting to get angry like why aren’t you taking care of the thing and he’s like I can do it but I now I feel really bad I feel horrible because like I should do it and I’m not doing it and so now I feel really bad and like uh and then the woman’s like I can’t even tell him like that he hasn’t done his thing because now he goes into a depression and so I’ve lost my husband and the connection which is more passive aggression for you know whatever two weeks cuz now he’s in a depression and by the way the car still hasn’t moved so now I can’t even complain about it and I can’t and I can’t ask for it to be moved because otherwise I’m going to like suffer all this so she starts getting resentful and then he’s resent and so there’s just this massive resentment that happens and then everybody gets scared to actually ask for what they want because there’s all this passive aggression that’s occurring and so it basically stagnates um like the ability to express what you want and need and therefore it stagnates the marriage or the business yeah oh I can’t say that like we were just at that uh company that I won’t mention the name of but everybody felt like they had to be nice yeah and so nobody could say things like the company’s in trouble and we have to do a better job we have to be a players if we’re going to keep our jobs because that would be seen as no like that’s not nice that’s not a nice thing to say like crazy so that that’s what it does it just and it just like it’s a very in a relationship if you see a very slow decline with everybody trying to like Smooth over and walk on eggshells you know there’s just like a ton of passive aggression going on in the relationship yeah one one thing I heard there in in that story or just in in overall like description of how this plays out is that there’s a step in there that often happens where there’s like a withdrawal of love like I’m just going to withdraw and that could be I’m going to withdraw from the resentment or the passive aggression but it could also be its own form of passive aggression correct like fine you know that kind and and so I’m curious to to go into a little bit more deeply what are some of the ways that people tend to respond to passive aggression that feed the cycle yeah that’s great I I love what you just said about like the withdrawal of love so just to speak about that for a second before we get into the the question what’s amazing to me is that like if we withdraw love it hurts us like it’s it’s a it’s a way in which we are cutting off love from ourselves right so when we are open to love if we’re loving somebody else not caretaking but loving somebody actually loving somebody else the love equally comes to us and through us and to them cutting it off you’re cutting off that love it’s really quite a painful experience experience once you really realize what it’s like to live with an open heart to close it is just sucks and and so we’re doing one one of the main forms of passive aggression and it’s a great like metaphor for the whole thing is to cut off love from another person like oh I’m going to withhold my love from you until you do what I want or just to punish you or just vindictiveness but often times when it’s happening you feel it as I’m protecting myself you don’t feel it as I am trying to hurt this other person the other person might feel it they might and even if they don’t say it they might feel guilty but they felt that withdrawal they felt like they’ve done something wrong and so it’s just this very interesting thing where sometimes that passive aggression is consciously known and sometimes it is not it is no I’m just protecting myself MH so that’s just an interesting thing about it um so onto your question which was can you remind me yeah just uh I mean you answered it pretty well there but maybe there’s more ways what are what are some of the ways that people tend to respond to passive aggressive behavior that tend to spin it spiral it out of out of proportion even more deeply yeah so there’s you know it’s the same way that people react to uh aggressive behavior so some people walk on eggshells oh my gosh like I don’t do that or I’ll break them oh my gosh and so they hold back their truth as a way to not break the situation or not break the person or not create an a response not create the depression not create whatever so there’s like this tentativeness and that’s how some people react to aggression like oh I got to worry about this person getting angry the other way is the other way people respond to anger which is more anger right which is the relationship that my dad had with my mom which was but he would feel bad about it he would be like ah like I shouldn’t be yelling and she was like yeah you shouldn’t be yelling but she was also provoking the thing and not being able to own it which is one of the things that’s really interesting if you look at the golden algorithm of passive aggression often times somebody was learned to be passive aggression because they couldn’t be aggressive somebody was more aggressive than them and so their passive aggression is the thing that’s creating the emotion that they’re trying to avoid which is someone attacking them right that feeling of oh my God I’m scared somebody is attacking me their passive aggression is creating it so there’s this beautiful golden algorithm to passive aggression often to create that aggressive experience in return yeah and for those just listening to this and haven’t heard that episode there’s an episode on the golden algorithm that goes really deeply into how how the thing we’re avoiding recreates the feeling we’re avoiding exactly the way we avoid it yeah yeah so those are the two ways that they either walk on eggshells or they get aggressive back and that’s that makes the them worse that that’s what makes the passive aggression get even wor it fuels the fire yeah yeah yeah and there’s there’s another one that you mentioned in there I don’t know if this is another category of thing but you mentioned sometimes people will go into shame and like how can going into shame be a form of passive aggression like okay look now you’ve lost me I’m collapsing see now you’ve done wrong and you’ve got to fix this right so again yes so you can like you know I was talking to a client the other day as moms uh came over from Europe to to help take care of their kid and and it was like everything was I’m being put upon and so he you know he was very much actively trying to say hey it really hurts when you criticize the way we’re taking care of the kid oh am I not allowed to say my peace am I not allowed to like share my opinion fine if you if I’m not allowed to share my opinion I want to share my opinion here right like it’s like that kind of like whatever thing he asked for she wasn’t aggressive like don’t tell me how to behave she was basically making everything an oppression right so that she could maintain this thing and I was I said Hey try this one out for a minute just every time she criticizes say ouch you know and at first it was like Hey that that doesn’t hurt no I’m sorry so sorry and at first it was like hey uh I didn’t hurt you and he would say yeah but it hurt so I’m saying ouch and eventually like she couldn’t be in the position of passive aggression anymore because every time he said ouch so it became really clear who who was being hurt in that moment but she really fought for a while like no you can’t take I’m the hurt one I’m like you can’t take the hurt one from me that’s me and so that’s often like the story of passive aggression is that when the person who’s being passive aggressive doesn’t want to have the role of I’m the hurt one taken away or I’m the non- aggressor yeah and then I’m also noticing how How could somebody say ouch in a passive aggressive way like ow you hurt me versus like ouch upright HT yeah so the so the difference there is like are you empowered do you feel empowered are you clear that you’re making a choice and that you’re not stuck H so generally it is when we’ve like so if we’re in the fear triangle and we have an episode on that if you’re in the fear triangle if you’re in the bully you’re not being passive aggressive but if you’re in the victim you’re almost all of your aggression is passive aggression and so if you feel like you’re stuck you feel like you have no choice you you’re just blaming somebody else internally blaming somebody else for your situation I guarantee you’re being passive aggressive in some way yeah or or if you’re not you’re going to be in the next you know day like that’s that’s the way it works is like if you feel stuck and you’re blaming then that that is even the blame is a form of passive aggression because you’re blaming somebody for your situation that you have full choice in yeah so this kind of leads into the next question which it’s somewhat natural coming it’s somewhat natural now is to ask what could somebody do different ly than what we’ve just previously described as the things that tend to invite more passive aggression and now I want to kind of maybe tweak the questions maybe not what people do differently but it’s how do they be yeah it’s like how it’s maybe even the question is how do we own our own aggression our own empowerment in such a way that we respond to passive aggression in a way that diffuses the dynamic and what are some of the ways that that might look yeah so so I think the first the most important thing is that you like don’t meet aggression with aggression typically occasionally you need to but typically meeting aggression with aggression leads to a power Dynamic so leads to more fear triangle so so and one the most common form of aggression that you would have is that I want to change you so trying to change the person’s passive aggression is is you’re like it’s you’re entering the dynamic with them mhm either by I’m going to be angry at you to change you or I’m going to I’m going to walk on eggshells to change you or I’m going to try to convince you to change you like any anything like that that’s that’s really the dynamic and so you want to un the way to undo it is to not try to change them but you can own your own experience so one of the ways to do that is ouch that hurt one of the ways to do that is to draw a boundary like oh I’m not really interested in being guilt tripped one of the ways to do that is just own what’s happening oh hey that feels like you’re guilt tripping me what what would make you guilt trip me right now be view any of those things again it’s really easy to make any of those things passive aggressive so the only way to do it is to really be in touch with your own empowerment which is I think the most critical piece which is you are making a choice to avoid a certain consequence and to own that choice like you don’t get to control the consequences but you get to control the choices that you make and so to really own that you’re making that choice I think is a really good first step internal step to changing a passive aggressive Dynamic also boundaries are just really really good like oh I don’t want to be criticized and the response might be like I’m not criticizing you am I not allowed to say what I want oh you’re welcome to say what you want and when I feel criticized I am going to walk away or I am going to say ouch or I am going to tell you that I feel criticized so that you know so you can act accordingly whatever it is that your reaction is going to be so I think boundaries is a really good one just like any form of anger at you or sadness at you or fear I think boundaries is a really good is a really good choice and and just owning it and just saying what it is out loud I think is really important if you’re in the dynamic of receiving passive aggression if you’re in the dynamic of giving passive aggression then there’s other things that you might want to be doing but but receiving it it’s you don’t enter the dynamic and you and you don’t accept someone being aggressive with you or trying to change you by force yeah and what I’m noticing here is that on either side of that Dynamic there is some form of unowned aggression in a lot of the cases we’ve just described so if you if you think you’re not if you think you’re receiving passive aggression how how do you know like if someone’s listening to this they’re like oh I’m surrounded by passive aggression how do you know if it’s actually you’re receiving it or you’re the source of it and you’re projecting it and creating it uh if you’re triggered by it then you’re you’re at least part of the source of it yeah so um definitely definitely like if you’re triggered by passive aggression that means that there’s some part of your own passive aggression and particularly maybe just towards yourself maybe it’s just the voice in your head that you’re not owning and and not loving and not saying oh right I really want this I really like desire this I want it the world to be this way and that’s okay like giving yourself that that that recognition that you’re at choice and so that’s not happening and and you’re not loving that aspect of yourself typically if you are if you’re surrounded by path of aggression you’re like oh check that out and you’re not triggered by it then you’re not the source and don’t mean that in a dis disassociated way either there’s some people there’s some people are like I am not bothered At All by all of this passive aggression that’s not what I’m talking about right then you’re probably very much being passive aggression being passive aggressive yeah yeah so you mentioned something really interesting there about internal like it might just be with yourself how how would you recognize if you are being passive aggressive with yourself oh man there’s so many ways that we’re passive aggressive with oursel one of my favorites this is going to bother a lot of people but one of my favorites is the like the like super helpful coach selft talk it’s like you can do it everything’s great like yeah like and you’re like you know one part of you is like oh man this day is crap turn that FR upside down says that like it’s like you’re basically saying you’re not allowed to feel this way I need you to feel this way like that’s a form of aggression and and so but you’re not you’re doing it in the form of like hey I’m this really good friend he’s a happy Coach and and you know we’ve all seen the dozens of movies about somebody who’s like really trying to live like that for 20 years and then goes into this deep dark hole and and those movies are made because there’s a reality to that so the passive aggressive usually ends up just like in a relationship into some explosion you know I don’t know why we seemed happy and then he just left after 20 years or she just left like there was a lot of passive aggression going on in those relationships so similarly in the head that’s one form another way that um we can be passive aggressive is that if you look at the way the voice in the head typically works there’s and it’s different for everybody in this but there’s often a bully which is like you got to lose weight you gotta you got to work harder you gotta make more friends you’re 40 years old and you don’t own a house yet whatever the thing the bully is saying and then there’s the other side of it which is like yeah yeah I’m going to get right to that like or oh yeah no that’s never going to work I’m never going to change this is never going to happen I’m like the part of the internal dialogue that goes oh I just saw that thing how do I make it stay that’s like passive aggression that’s that’s like it’s an undermining it’s a saying that like you can’t it’s not going to work it’s like that little yeah this is never going to work that part of your voice in your head also can be incredibly passive aggress aggressive you know yeah yeah I’m also like wondering how many I’m just curious like how many how many people listening to this right now are like oh yeah all the passive aggression that I see out there that’s triggering me this is like really good fodder for my own growth and then once I’ve done all that growth and I’m no longer triggered by it everything will change and I will have fixed all of the passive aggression around me in the world and I’m wondering like what what do you see in there yeah you’re not wrong that’s there’s truth to that and it’s a very slow and efficient path do all that great fantastic and draw boundaries and and see what’s like to hold a boundary to the aggression so the thing about it is with us we expect it right and and it’s okay of course we’re living with it every day why would we think it’s not okay as we learn to love ourselves as we say no that kind of selft talk that kind of internal relationship is not okay I’m not living with that then we’re not going to accept it from the outside world vice versa if we say hey I’m not going to accept that pass I’m not accepting guilt trips from you mom anymore it’s not happening I love you I want to interact with you I care about you but when you do guilt trips I am going to leave or I am going to say mom please don’t do a guilt trip on me and I’ll just keep on repeating it until you stop whatever I’m going to do when I say that I’m sending a very strong signal to the voice of my head that I’m not doing that to my this is unacceptable so both ways work and and so to do them both at the same time is a far more efficient path and to do it like I’m going to fix it all on myself and then go on to the outside world and be you know happy and everybody’s going to not be passive aggressive with me because the truth is if you’re interacting with people they’re going to be passive aggressive with you and you’re going to like you know be triggered by it or not be triggered by it interact with it or not interact with it those are all the choices that you have so let’s say somebody who’s done a lot of this work and they’re recognizing the way that they’ve been triggered by passive aggression and then they work through that trigger and naturally they’re going to start to see it wherever it is yeah and they might find themselves swimming in a culture where passive aggression is a norm yeah this could be any culture in different ways not to call out particular culture so what you know what happens when when a person finds themselves just swimming in it yeah yeah I mean first I just noticed that like generally if PE if the if there’s more so there’s acting being kind because you have an open heart and you want to be kind and then there’s like being polite and being nice and I notice the more nice and polite a culture is often times the more passive aggressive passive aggression is builtin there’s like a kind of a builtin like that very nice everybody’s very nice to us in this neighborhood and like that’s the neighborhood where there’s going to be a ton of gossip that’s that’s the lot of people talking about each other behind their back and so and whereas cultures where that isn’t like there’s no expectation of Civility niceness like in that way if it’s not heartfelt and it’s like yeah it’s totally okay to say God damn it that I’m upset with you then there’s going to be like less passive aggression then the the place where passive aggression in those societies are going to if someone’s like a bully Yeller there’s going to be the P the person on the other side of the fear triangle like the victim who’s going to fall into that passive aggression so so that’s typically where you’ll see it in a society what do you do in that Society is is interesting right so the other day Tara and I were sitting at this coffee shop and we were just like we had had a long day and we were just kind of spacing out and there was a a couple sitting near us and they walked out and I heard them say oh my God that was so rude how like what makes them think they could do that or something like that and I was like oh wow they’re speaking about us because we were just staring out into the air but we were staring in their Direction and so they felt wash and I totally appreciate how like that like I like I could see someone going yeah that’s that’s rude but that’s like that’s one of those like oh this is a societal Norm that we have a contract in our little part of society that that’s not okay there’s other parts of society where people are like yeah staring at somebody’s not a problem that’s kind of what you do if you’re just hanging out together um and so so it’s just like the more of those kind of like Norms the more of that like setup where this is what I can do and this is what I can’t do and it gets more and more complicated off often you’re going to get more you’re going to get more passive aggression if you don’t want to do that then you have to feel like you’re not actually obligated to those Norms which is really really scary and it’s it reminds me of this story I think it’s a Buddhist story but it’s like you know similar to Jesus um going out into the desert and getting like the three Temptations I believe that mea Mara I can’t remember had three Temptations for Buddha and um and one of The Temptations was like societal Norms like the Temptation is like what will Society think of you like your reputation in society like and so there’s a an you can’t believe those things if you’re going to like you can believe like oh if I hurt somebody that’s not okay that’s moral but if it’s just like these arbitrary rules that have been set up so that people can stay comfortable if you feel those then you’re going to you’re bound to be more and more passive aggressive and be caught up in it if you can not if you can see through those things you can say oh like that’s a choice that I can make but it’s a choice I get to make and I’m not a bad person because I’m not doing what this particular part of society wants me to do then there’s less of a chance of you falling into the passive behavior um at the same time you’re probably if you’re in a passive aggressive Society you’re going to receive a certain amount of that and if that’s trigger you until it doesn’t until you can see through that until you’re not that way with yourself or you’re going to say I don’t want to live in that kind of a society which I think a ton of people do I think our cities are full of young people who are like I don’t want to live in that passive aggressive Society in the midwest or in the South or in Modesta whatever I don’t want to live in that and so they come to a place where they area yeah where they hope that they can find more freedom and make their own social norms I want to go back and double a little bit on kind of how we opened the episode with taking passive aggression and making it active and I’m I’m curious like what do you mean when you invite people into turning their passive aggression into active aggression and like what are some of the guard rails around that within whether it’s in the course or in coaching or yeah maybe in somebody in a relationship when they’re realizing someone’s being passive aggressive with with them and it’s a partner and they’re just like hey you know what I I welcome your aggression what are what are some ways to have that not go totally sideways or at least welcome the dumpster fire yeah yeah in a healthy way so what what I would say is that you know our rule is rule of thumb is that we don’t get angry at somebody so that doesn’t matter if it’s aggressive anger or passive aggressive anger like we don’t get angry at somebody without permission and so you want to be permiss give get permission so we’ll in if we’re facilitating somebody and we’re getting paid to help somebody work with this stuff we’ll be like hey that’s passive let’s make it aggressive and like invite them into experiencing that you don’t need to do it at anybody you can just do it you can just get into a room and and move the anger that’s underneath the passive aggression and that’s going to be your most effective way to reduce the amount of passive aggression also that you’re that you’re that you’re doing the other thing is to really admit that it’s passive aggression is really really useful here’s all the things that I do when I want to get my way and and I’m and I’m not directly asking for it write them all down and those are all passive aggression C all forms of passive aggression that you can look at so admitting it to yourself is a really important thing um moving the anger outwardly but not at anybody is great if somebody wants to give you permission fantastic if they do I I it’s very tentative it’s very risky especially if it’s in a long-term relationship there can be a lot of retraumatization and damage so I really recommend if you’re going to do that at least the first couple times do it with a professional and also if you’re going to um do that at any time the person wants to stop you stop um so it’s you know so that somebody can actually feel like they’re in control that they’re not just being yelled at and re-traumatizing themselves so that’s that’s another thing I think um also just recognizing that you have choice and you can ask for what you want a lot of passive aggression stops when somebody feels like oh I can just ask for what I want and typically it’s going to be like I can’t ask for what I want because he’s not going to say yes anyways or I can’t ask for what I want because then the marriage might fail there’s going to always be some reason that you’re stuck on the other side of it and it’s going to seem really really real um but that’s a choice you’re making and you have to recognize like oh I’m choosing not to ask for what I want want because this is the trade that I’m making for that and until it feels empowered until you can’t blame anybody and you don’t feel stuck that it’s a choice then it’s going to continue to be passive aggression so those are those are some of the things that you can do to really start loosening up your own passive aggression passive aggressive a actions also drawing boundaries is fantastic if you’re being passive aggressive often times like my mom I when we had this conversation about you know how she was making it so people wanted to yell at her you know earlier we had talked about my dad is like if you want my dad to stop yelling at you it’s really easy you just say hey when you yell me I’m going to leave my dad couldn’t have lived without my mom he would like so all all she had to do was just like walk out of the house for three hours every time he yelled at her and it would have been done in a couple three weeks and so it’s like drawing that boundary is a really asking for what you want drawing the boundary those are the skills to stop the passive aggression yeah I’m also curious for for whoever’s listening to this and they’re like oh that like make the passive aggression active that’s a great idea and then they want to go to their spouse and be like hey you’re being passive aggressive make it active or they go to their team they’re like okay enough of this passive aggression like bring it and like that’s that’s part of part of my question there is like what do the guidance or the don’t do that the the warning or the my guidance is don’t do that like you’re trying to change somebody else you’re you’re doing the same thing they’re doing just in a different way it’s it’s the same it’s the same habit it’s the same pattern just be recreating itself it’s not your job if you want to be in a loving relationship love the person and and yourself the way that you are and don’t be trying to change them and so that whole you should be you should do this you that’s you trying to manipulate them now you can invite them to it say Hey you know I noticed this kind of thing is happening how would you feel let’s listen to this podcast together but it’s if you’re in there trying to change them to be different so that you can be happy then you’re as much in the fear triangle as they are which by the way is the other thing that you can do around passive aggression is really look at the fear and sit in the fear that’s underneath the aggression that if it’s not always there but often there’s some fear and so that’s that’s one end of the spectrum is the like you’re being passive aggressive make active end of the spectrum might just be like hey I noticed like what’s what it appears to me is passive aggression and actually I’m I’m here for it I welcome I welcome your anger like I’m I’m curious any any tips or guidance if if that’s the way you’re feeling in in a situation yeah I think if you’re feeling that way that that’s great as long as you can not feel obligated to do that and be able to say stop when you need it to stop but yeah if you’re like oh I know it’s your passive aggressive and I know I notic that there’s some passive aggression going on or I’m feeling it even better I’m feeling that I’m feeling what’s happening right now as passive aggression and I just want you to know I’m totally happy to hear what you want I’m happy to hear your anger I’m happy to hear the boundary that you might have sounds fantastic awesome yeah and uh I’d love to leave listeners with an experiment till they hear in next episode what what’s what’s an experiment somebody could bringing into their life to either notice or bring just bring this more into awareness in the world yeah write down a list of all the people that you subtly blame and for what so just like go okay here’s a list of all the people I subtly blame and for what and then when you’ve made that list find out how you’re being aggressive to them like right here’s the ways that I’m being aggressive and so it can either be passive or direct or both or it could be many but just like notice that wherever there’s that blame there’s some form of aggression that’s happening and write it down and that’ll really help you see it more clearly when it’s happening it also help you get in touch with like oh I’m blaming somebody like they’re hurting me and and and they need to stop like that you’ll get to and you’ll start feeling that right away which is really the root of that is to really be able to be in contact when you’re blaming somebody else awesome cool thank you Joe I’m oh wait I have one more I have another one um we have the upright apology episode and I I think we have something on the website on apologies and uh under the experiments part of of uh the website but the other thing you can do is and very powerful is to do an upright not a regular but an upright apology for all the places that you’ve been passive aggression aggressive so I know that if you probably make 20 apologies for Passive aggression you’re the amount of passive aggression that you’re going to be doing in the world will probably decrease by at least 30 or 40% as long as it’s not a passive aggressive apology upright apology that’s right it’s like I’m sorry that you made me get angry at you the other day I’m sorry that you made me guilt trip you there was just no other way to do it put up with your oh my gosh it just goes to prove like you can take any any recognition and and weaponize it yeah indeed H all right awesome yeah thank you Joe a pleasure thank you thank you thanks everybody for listening and send us your thoughts