Summary
Joe and Alexa Kistler explore authority issues from every angle — those who rebel against authority, those who seek its approval, and those who hold authority themselves. Joe shares how his abusive father caused him to distrust all authority figures, including spiritual teachers, while others learn to seek approval from authority to earn love.
They discuss how authority distorts reality for leaders: people don’t give honest feedback, spend $100k polishing presentations, and either kiss up or attack. This makes leaders feel alone, lose empathy, and start believing they’re special. Joe explains that the culture and the leader co-create each other — like baboon troops where any member can lead if they move with confidence and directness.
The conversation covers practical solutions: rebels need to see authorities as human and get in touch with their own wants; approval-seekers need to speak hard truths to authority figures; leaders who fear being oppressive need to provide structure through principles and processes; and isolated leaders need to ask for specific help. Joe emphasizes that all authority issues stem from not being seen, and that when everyone feels seen, the politics dissolve.
Key Concepts
- Authority issues mean not treating authorities as human beings
- The leader and the culture co-create each other
- Being in authority distorts your reality
- Rebelling against authority and seeking its approval are two sides of the same coin
- When everyone feels seen, organizational politics dissolve
- Providing structure through principles creates safety, not oppression
- Complimenting others’ work makes you the authority in the room
- How you treat your internal authority mirrors how you treat external ones
Key Quotes
“Authority issues basically means that you are treating authorities not like human beings.”
“The culture affects the CEO as much as the CEO affects the culture. It is an actual dance.”
“Spit at the top of the authority — when they spit, it’s a waterfall at the bottom.”
“The person they trust the most is the one who can say the hard thing to them.”
“When everybody feels seen, whatever the politics are, they go away.”
“I love your frustration… and all the separation totally went away. It’s us.”
Transcript
That’s the interesting thing about authority issues — on a personal level we’re handing our power over one way or another whether I’m handing like I handed my power over by rebelling against or somebody’s handing power over by trying to get approval. Either way we’re not paying attention to our choices and if we really deal with it and treat them like a human then we’re empowered but we have to take responsibility for the relationship. Hi Joe. Hey it’s good to see you Alexa. Good to see you too. So today we’re going to talk about authority issues. Yeah that’s a personal favorite of mine. I have had a well seasoned bouquet of authority issues in my lifetime. Well you know what me too. I hadn’t noticed Alexa. Right so what do we mean by authority issues? Authority issues basically means that you are treating authorities not like human beings. And so in a weird way almost everybody has authority issues but that’s the main thing that’s what I would call the authority issue. It’s somehow or another that you either think that the authority is trying to oppress you or the authority is somebody that you’re trying to please or the authority somehow can validate you. Or you’re just not treating them like a normal human being the way you would treat a friend or somebody on the side of the road. You have some level of projection onto them which is distorting your relationship with them and distorting the way that you are in the world. Distorting what you can actually get in the world too right. So when I was a kid the main authority in my life obviously was my dad and that relationship was not functional at all so I went through life not trusting any authority. There was like — and therefore the idea of having mentorship I couldn’t even conceive of it until my 30s. That somebody would mentor me — so I lost that. With teachers I just didn’t trust any teacher so I could read the book but I wouldn’t actually go and hang out with any kind of spiritual teacher because I couldn’t trust them. They were — there was something wrong with all of them. Or teachers that I had in college I was always looking for how they were wrong so I wasn’t really also learning from them. And so what I got in my life was deeply affected by the fact that I didn’t trust authority and I had that kind of authority issue. I think simultaneously I saw other people who were like oh I need to please the authority and so they didn’t get to think for themselves. They didn’t get to get in touch with their own wants and desires. They were leading their life not from their truth but from what they assume the authority wanted from them. So all of that is what I would call an authority issue. Any side of that would be an authority issue. And it really creates some crazy dynamics for the person who is apparently in authority as well. Like there’s a whole bunch of stuff it does on that side which is very interesting to me. Well yeah let’s talk about that. What does that — what do authority issues create for the authority? So one of the things I noticed is like in a company or in a cult or like with rock stars — any of those kinds of situations what happens is that people treat the authority differently, not as a human, and so it’s a lot easier for the authority to stop acting like a human. So you know there’s things that if you walk around your world and you’re in charge of 2,000 people in a company let’s just say and everybody’s worried what you think and everybody is trying to please you. It’s often very hard for the authority figure to actually feel that. To actually allow themselves to go oh wow everybody here is trying to please me. As a matter of fact, the majority of people who are running a company of 2,000 people often feel alone in it. Feel like they don’t have anybody who wants to help them. So it’s this strange mechanism. But at the same time they’re being treated in this very specific way and so they start losing touch with reality. People don’t give them bad news. People don’t give them real feedback. Everybody’s trying to please them. And so they don’t actually feel deeply connected which is what makes them feel alone in it. Right so there’s that aspect that happens. The other aspect is for some authorities what it feels like is that people want you to make their decisions for them. Right because oh like do you like that does that work is that okay sir — is like ma’am — and so you start making decisions and telling people they’re right and wrong and that makes actually oddly makes people feel safe. Like oh okay because this person says it’s right or wrong then I know I’ve done it right or wrong because if that person’s gone then we have to actually live with the reality that nobody knows what the hell is going on really. Like there’s some people who are better guessers at it but nobody was like oh I know how to build a spaceship company. Nobody knows how to do this stuff that’s being done in the world right? Anything new, anything innovative. And so we either have to deal with the fact that nobody actually knows or we have to hand our power over to somebody. And when you hand the power over to somebody it distorts their reality. Right oh my God all these thousands of people need me to decide — it becomes really easy to go oh yeah like people shouldn’t be making their own decisions or I’m special. And it also makes you feel like — the other thing that happens — what I notice is that people get very selfish in those positions because there’s not a lot of themselves that they can get anywhere else. They’re walking through the company and there’s like — you walk through a company of 2,000 people if you’re just an employee and it’s like oh hey what’s going on. They walk through a company of 2,000 people and it’s like he’s there oh my gosh oh my god did I dress — whatever the crap is going on in all these people’s minds because there’s all this projection on this person. So try to act normal after living with that for two or three years. With people screaming every time you get on stage. With people throwing themselves at you thinking that you’re going to make their dreams come true. Whatever it is. And so it really distorts. And then that’s one side. The other side is that then people are attacking you for no reason whatsoever because you’re the authority. People like me — “screw you, don’t tell me what to do” — and then it’s like — so you’re either walking around and people are trying to kiss your ass or people are attacking you for no reason which really creates quite a defensive mechanism in a human being. And you start thinking you’re above and start thinking the people actually need leadership and that people are dumb. “You’re attacking me for no reason. You don’t even know who I am.” It’s really quite a dynamic. And the thing that’s really interesting to me about it is that usually what people do is they blame the authority figure right. Our company’s crap because of the CEO. Our country is crap because of the president. That’s the face. That’s who’s going to get blamed. But what I’ve noticed is that the culture affects the CEO as much as the CEO affects the culture. It is an actual dance. Whether you’re looking at chimpanzee culture or indigenous tribe culture — those cultures they’re very aware of that. Like if the head male chimpanzee doesn’t treat everybody with respect they get kicked out a lot quicker than the ones who treat them all with respect. If they’re very dominant they don’t last as long. And so there’s this kind of understanding that we’re responsible. I feel like most people in the United States right now they feel like they’re put upon by the choices for president or by the president. They’re not like oh we’re choosing this. And people don’t like taking that responsibility. And so that’s the interesting thing about authority issues all the way around. It’s — on a personal level we’re handing our power over one way or another. Whether I’m handing my power over by rebelling or somebody’s handing power over by trying to get approval. Either way we’re not paying attention to our choices and if we really deal with it and treat them like a human then we’re empowered but we have to take responsibility for the relationship. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Also I’m just comparing it to my own sort of authority issues. And I think I have a thing where — let’s see how do I explain that — it’s kind of like if somebody has authority and they are not feeling their emotions. So if they have fear — which you can see even in a really small example like a teacher at the front of a class or something like that and they’re holding a bunch of fear and sort of trying to be above their fear. I can’t stand it. Right totally. Which — it’s almost not that I’m not treating them as a human. I think it’s almost more like hey man you’re just a guy. Like you’re not some authority on high. You’re just a guy. You think you know what you’re talking about but I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. I think you’re just some guy. It’s almost me knocking them down to human level. Yeah so the interesting thing about that is let’s say the person next to you in the class was scared. Would you turn over to them and say you’re just a guy? Probably not right. So that’s the unique spin that happens. But I love what you’re saying because that’s very much what I did. I very much was like — I would maybe even try to knock them lower than me right. Like oh see you’re a spiritual teacher that needs your face on a book. You don’t get it. I mean I remember I had literally had that thought process around Adyashanti who ended up being one of the more important figures in my life. Oh dude like look at you, you need your face on a book. I just did whatever was required to make sure that I was better than the authority so I didn’t have to feel my own longing for their approval or my own hurt for their disapproval or whatever the emotions were underneath. Yeah of course they’re a person and of course they’re scared. That’s the thing. It’s like right. Yeah when I look at it from another angle it’s true that I know a number of founders and CEOs who have that kind of fear that you’re describing. And I’ve even heard people say things like oh I just don’t feel like I can give anyone advice anymore because people take my advice way too seriously. They changed their lives around it. So I have to be cold. I have to be distant from folks. Yeah there’s some studies that really show that people who have been in positions of power for an extended period of time start losing empathy. I don’t think that’s universal but statistically true which is really a heavy cost for people. But there is this weird consequence right — so like I hang out with a billionaire and everybody — a famous one — and everybody’s coming to them to make their dreams come true. The driver, the person opening the door for them — everybody’s looking at them like oh you can make me happy. Imagine walking around like that. Yeah I don’t want to feel that. It’s really heavy. Right. I heard this comedian talking about it and he said being famous is like walking around with Alzheimer’s. Everybody’s very sweet and they know you but you know nobody. Like you’re in a small village with Alzheimer’s and everybody’s like oh hi and you’re like I have no idea who you are. Oh yeah that’s rough. Right all these people relating to some character that they think you are. And then you put that authority figure that you talked about who was saying like oh I’m scared — you’re like you’re scared I see you’re scared and you’re just a normal person. They’re scared because there’s somebody in the audience who — they’re scared because they’re like I can’t show that I’m scared because I’m the authority and then nobody will trust me. And there’s some truth to that. The weird thing is that humans in general do like their leaders to be secure and confident and not scared and know what they’re doing. And have a certain amount of assurity or narcissism that’s like yeah I got this — even though they don’t because none of us do. Yeah but there’s a fine line to walk there because I’m just comparing this to a recent experience of attending a talk by a founder and they were scared — my kryptonite — and they kept responding to really critical questions about their product and their approach with defense. And the more that they would defend and try to uphold that idea that they were powerful and they were cool — I also was just having a hard time sitting there. Like I don’t enjoy watching this happen. It’s a lot for me to sit with. I wish I weren’t here right now. It’s cool product and everything but this leadership style isn’t working for me. And I know that it’s because they’re trying to maintain an appearance of having it all together. Yeah absolutely. Right so it is just very — for the authority figure it’s this very weird — oh to know how — because there is a very specific way in which if that authority figure would have said as an example oh wow that’s some really cool criticism can you tell me more like how would you improve the product what do you see here — then they would be very confident and very open and everybody would be like oh that’s great. But if that authority figure went oh my product sucks — do you know like I put years of my time into this and then you don’t even like it — or whatever a thousand other fear responses they would have lost the room even further. Right. And that one sounded like collapse to me. Right collapse or freeze — yeah like they went a little bit to bully it sounds like in the fear triangle. But if they would have done any fear response that would have created this other thing. So that’s why they’re like oh I’m going to just manage my fear and compartmentalize my fear which is making it worse as compared to using their fear as a mechanism to see what they can learn and how they can grow. The interesting thing to me is that I run in the master class this executive cohort. One of the things I do in the executive cohort is that I have people visualize the reality of being an authority figure. You walk into a room and everybody notices you’re there. There’s a couple people you can see it in their face they’re like screw you just because you’re the authority figure. And there’s a couple people who are like ooo are they looking at me do they notice me. And I literally walk through and have them feel all the emotions that you don’t allow yourself to feel as an authority figure because it’s really quite overwhelming. Like oh people are saying specific things to you to make you feel good or to kiss your ass or to show value to you. Everybody wants to be of value to you. Everybody wants to be seen. And there’s people rebelling against you. And feeling all this stuff — it’s amazing the reaction and it’s amazing what happens when you do that as an authority figure. Like how you walk into a company differently when you actually can see the reality on the ground and allow yourself to feel it rather than try to avoid it. And so yeah there’s a lot of emotions to be dealt with on that side of the coin but it’s all happening because of authority issues on the other side. Right so it is this dance that we’re doing together — the authority figure and the group. Like in a weird way the authority figure is channeling the way the group treats them. Yeah I definitely see truth in that. And vice versa — the authority’s spit at the top of the authority — when they spit it’s a waterfall at the bottom — is something that I say all the time to CEOs. And what do you mean by that? That’s like a little bit of a criticism of a CEO can create million dollar changes at the bottom of the company. Like if they just get a — so as an example I went into one of the top five biggest companies in the world to go and do a cultural shift and I went through three levels of management all of them trying to manage the response of the person at the top. Right so the first person’s managing me for the second person who manages me and they’re not really worried about my results. They’re in their mind saying okay this is what I think the CEO needs to be happy so make sure you do that. And I don’t do that anymore. Now I will not work through the — because it distorts it so much I’ll only work with the leader. I won’t work with everything in between. I just refuse to do that because it gets so distorted. There’s so much time spent — I was working with some folks and they told me literally they spent $100,000 on a video for the CEO. It was $100,000 spent on a single video just to show the CEO something so that the CEO would approve the budget. There was $100,000 spent instead of like hey here’s the situation here’s the reality on the ground this is what we’re wrestling with — what do you think we should do how do we move forward — or this is how we think we should move forward. No it was a $100,000 polished piece to get what you want. Right. So that’s the spit at the top is the waterfall at the bottom. The company, the organization is in some degree a reflection of the leader and the leader is in some degree a reflection of the organization. Yeah. The other thing it sounds like is almost being said — not quite — is that dynamic that you’re talking about wouldn’t necessarily work on the leader if they were able to stay really in themselves in their vulnerability and their curiosity. So for instance if this founder I was listening to their talk the other day hadn’t had something to defend. If they were truly open to the criticism being something interesting — like an opportunity for them to change their product — even though yes they’ve probably been working on it for the last four years of their life. If it were an opportunity or at least something that they would like to see before it kind of hits them in the market — that would have been easier for my system. Yes absolutely. Yeah so absolutely — I really encourage — like I walk up into our office for instance and I really encourage people to make fun of me. I make fun of myself. Like there’s a lot of laughing at Joe that happens in the office. We laugh at each other too don’t get me wrong but this is really important for me culturally for people to see me as human right. And so I do lots of things to make sure that stays the case. Right where people don’t look at me and think that they have to please me. One of the things that we do in our company that you know about is that at the end of every email people have to give somebody else an action. So if you write to me or a part-time assistant writes to me on our internal communication thing and they write to me they have to give me an action to take at the end of that. They have to assign me — they have to delegate me. Right and so that’s part of what we’re doing to say oh wait we’re all a team here. I have a particular role you have a particular role but anybody gets to assign anybody a task and anybody gets to say no. But it’s so important to realize that relationship is going both ways. There’s a whole bunch of things that we do to do that. But I think I learned it actually through teaching more than I learned it through running a company — which is that if I ever defended when somebody attacked me, if I ever defended, it always went south. Like it just only went south. So especially in the role of this kind of teaching. Now I’m far more likely to say — I remember somebody saying to me the other day you make stuff up you just made this up. I’m like absolutely. I cannot prove any of this to be true. Like absolutely test it for yourself. Figure it out for yourself. And I’m not also going to say that making it up is bad. I mean Jeff Bezos made up Amazon. But like making stuff up is how humans create cool things. But yes I made stuff up. I’m making this up right now. And so — and that’s the part that like when I’ll say it there’s something that people like about that energetically. They’re like oh yeah cool — no defense. But then there’s something else in there that people go wait wait I want some sort of solidity. I want some sort of ground that tells me that there’s a right and a wrong. That there’s something I can trust. And if you stop believing in the authority as anything besides just another human being who’s got one job to do, then the other thing you have to give up is the idea that there’s like some ground that you get to stand on — right or wrong, good or bad, well performed or not well performed. That all goes away without an authority. And that’s what I see — a lot of folks particularly people transitioning from C-level to becoming an entrepreneur — that’s the biggest hurdle they have to come up. Like oh I don’t get that leader anymore to follow. Everybody’s following me. I don’t get that idea that they know what they’re doing anymore. And it’s a big hurdle for a lot of people. Absolutely. Yeah it seems like a reflection of a personal growth journey. Yeah it very much is. And there’s nothing wrong with saying oh the place I love in life is to be of service to somebody in that role. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s actually quite a free lovely thing. And the best way to do that is to also see that they don’t know what they’re doing either. Like their approval doesn’t mean anything. It’s just — we’re just two human beings. We like each other’s approval. And I think that’s the other thing that people don’t really see is that the authority figure also wants the approval of the people who are working with them. Yeah and it’s very hard for people to see — like if you’re in a meeting and somebody’s like hey that’s great work that’s fantastic you did a great job — there that’s the authority figure in the room because no one’s really doing that for the authority figure. And so it’s interesting — when I’m working with executives who are like oh how do I — when the power structure is off between them and a peer — one of the things I’ll say to them is hey just compliment people’s work. It makes you the authority in the room. That’s powerful. It’s crazy. Yes so it’s — and I really really felt it when you said that. Even when I’ve been in authority roles on big projects — like it’s true nobody tells me I did a good job. Right. It hurts to see that. Yeah I have this email right now to one of the CEOs I work with and it’s basically just an email to say hey just so you know it’s possible that you can feel like when you walk into the office you can feel like you have a team of people around you who want to support you and you want to support them. And you feel held by them and they feel held by you. Like I just want you to know that’s possible. It doesn’t have to be you are at it all alone and you have to manage everybody and you have to move everybody. It’s really possible for you as the authority in the company to walk in and just see that everybody wants you to succeed. They want you to win and they’re there to help you and that you are there to help them win. And there’s that feeling of actual teamwork in it. And what’s amazing to me is there’s very few CEOs who actually get that. There’s very few CEOs who feel like oh I’m part of a team that loves being a team. That loves working together and that supports each other. It’s really really really rare. The team might have it but the CEO doesn’t feel like they’re part of that team which is crazy. Yeah. This might be torturing the metaphor but — be the lake. So somebody has a sword and they’re attacking the lake and you’re like that’s fine I’m a lake. Go for it. And then thinking about — yeah — being the authority who feels supported — it’s like can you see yourself as supported in being that lake. That there are boats and fish — there’s all sorts of things that are going on and moving through that system. Yeah I think it’s even more than that. Like the way I feel in our company is that everybody wants us to win. There’s nobody who’s working with us who doesn’t want us to win. There’s nobody working for us who doesn’t want to win. There’s nobody working with us who doesn’t want what we’re doing in the world to grow. There’s nobody working with us who doesn’t want me to be in integrity and happy and successful. And I want that from them and for them. Like it’s very — I know people exist in marriages where this isn’t the case where you’re not really sure that your husband or wife wants what’s best for you. But if you have that kind of marriage — a whole company can be like that. And the trick is that they feel seen. Everybody feels seen. And I don’t even know how to explain that. A perfect example of this is — as I was starting and being the leader in a company of a bigger size and I was starting to not feel seen and there’s the them and us — me and them — that authority issue thing coming up. I got really frustrated one day and Sarah was like I love your frustration and all the separation totally went away. It’s us. It’s — we’re doing this together. I have a role you have a role but we’re humans together. And that’s what happens if you don’t have an authority issue. Right if you’re not oh my God I did something wrong because they’re frustrated or screw you you don’t know what you’re doing because you’re frustrated and scared. It’s like oh yeah I love your frustration Joe. It’s telling us that there’s something important that we’re missing. And it’s just like — that’s where the culture affected me. And I’m sure that happened because I’ve made the culture a safe place to be able to do that. But that’s the experience that’s just like oh she saw me. And I notice whenever things are going wrong in the company my first move now is to make sure everybody feels seen. Oh beautiful. It changes. That’s what you want. It’s what I want and it’s what changes. It’s just the most effective way to change things is to help people feel seen. And feeling seen is not always comfortable. Feeling seen sometimes is uncomfortable. But that’s — and if everybody feels seen then whatever the politics are they go away. Wow. Yeah. I don’t know where this question is going to go but I just want to ask — that makes me excited for it. Do you think this thing about being seen — like how does that tie back into authority issues? Yeah I think that’s where they all arise from — feeling of not being seen. I wasn’t seen for my goodness so screw authority. And I think the people who are seen for what they offer the authority — by being a good kid, by offering value, by doing the chores or whatever — those people are more likely to grow up and try to get the authority figure’s approval. And so — and there’s benefits to both. Right like the fact that I had authority issues allowed me to do experimentation which allowed me to build something like this. Me having authority issues meant that I was like screw society I’m going to do things my own way which allowed me to experiment in weird things like esoteric parts of Buddhism and not work for a decade and meditate and blah blah blah. Like that all came from that screw authority place and there’s been a tremendous amount of benefit from it. Often CEOs are people who had authority issues so they’re like I’m not going to have an authority above me. Right that’s often the case. So I’m going to do this thing — which is an interesting check. I want to go back to that — I’m going to pin that because that creates this weird dynamic for CEOs. And then there’s benefits to not having that kind — looking for that approval. It’s like you get mentorship easier. You can be open to learning. You don’t reinvent the wheel like I did a thousand times. You’re not in a fight — have a teacher right. You don’t get kicked out of college like I did. Right like there’s a whole bunch of really beneficial things that happen if you have the other side of an authority issue. But it’s harder because you don’t get to listen to yourself as much. So there’s no wrong way to go about it. It’s just really whichever side you’re in — how do you start listening to yourself? And the other piece that’s really true about that is that it also really reflects how you treat your own authority. Like the critical voice in the head often acts like an authority figure. And as you don’t buy into it your reflection in the world is that you don’t buy into the authority outside either. You’re like oh you’ve got some good things to say — maybe I have to translate you — no I’m not going to listen to that. That kind of freedom that you have with your own internal authority figure often shows exactly how you’re going to treat authorities in your own life. Yeah so just for the CEOs or the leaders — the thing I pinned that I think is really important is I’ve seen a lot of times CEOs are like yeah I don’t like authority. So entrepreneurs particularly — not somebody who rose through a bureaucracy to become a CEO — but entrepreneurs they’re like I don’t want authority. And so then they are like I don’t want to be that oppressive authority that my dad was and so then they don’t actually stand into their authority completely and then everybody feels lost in their organization. If you don’t come in and say — you don’t have to say this is what we’re doing — but you have to say this is our process, this is our values, this is our principles, this is how we operate. We can discuss it but that’s my job — to hold that. And this is how we’re doing things. If you don’t give enough of that to a team they won’t feel safe. And so it’s actually better to say this is exactly how I want you to do something than to do the far side of one spectrum. The other side which I started with because I had such authority issues is like yeah just do what you want figure it out. Tell me what you want to do. Like that doesn’t work either. And the middle path for me has been — these are the principles, this is how we operate, this is the structure, this is the process, these are the roles. If you want to change them I’m open to discussion but this is how we’re doing things — so that people feel safe. Because when there’s no authority people start vying for that authority role. If you don’t provide it other people will vie for it and that creates utter chaos. And you see that in a room all the time. If we’re facilitating something — if I do not act like enough of an authority the whole room feels unsafe. If I act too much like an authority the room starts to feel unsafe. It’s this balance. So it’s an interesting piece — we do want someone to actually play the role. As humans we want someone to fulfill that position. It’s a very natural position for any group of primates to have. But what’s interesting to me about it — it’s not what you think it is. Meaning if you look at baboons — they put all these tracking collars on baboons and every morning the baboons would come down off the tree and they would decide which way to go. And they were trying to figure out how they decided which way to go. Who led them — was it the alpha male? And it turned out it was anybody. Sometime the least dominant female would lead the way and sometime the most dominant male would lead the way. And what they literally found was the baboon that did it with the most directness — because that’s what you could track — they were just like yep this is what we’re doing and they went at a reasonable clip and they moved with confidence — then the whole troop followed. And I see that that’s actually what happens in an organism. That is the nature of how humans work. Now that alpha male baboon is still the alpha male baboon but the leadership came as much from him as anybody else in the group. And you see that happen all the time. A CEO wants something to be this way but it’s not that way and they’re like why isn’t it that way? Because the culture is doing something different. And to recognize that is really lovely. When you really see — oh like if you harness that instead of fight it as a leader it’s magical. Yeah there’s a wisdom greater than any one person’s in a group. I love that too. I mean it strikes me that there’s something really interesting in there about how to act with confidence if you yourself have some amount of authority issues. Right. Yeah I mean that’s the crazy piece too. The problem that I had in acting like an authority — playing the role of the person with authority — is that I was scared I was going to get attacked. Well makes sense. I attacked every authority that I ever came across. And that was like the best thing about that — recently in master class somebody wrote this beautiful thing in the feedback for the course — they’re like God damn it I did everything I could to make this course oppress me and you just wouldn’t do it. I tried to make you the authority. I tried to get you to tell me what to do. You just wouldn’t do it. That’s real. It’s one of the reasons that you became my teacher. I looked — I’ve tried so many different folks and I believe that there’s a lot of people out there who have something worth learning but gosh if something’s not quite right I just can’t stay in the group and stay really open. But with you I can. Yeah thanks. Yeah it’s been a pleasure watching you see me more and more as human and less and less as an authority over the years. Like that’s been a great pleasure. I mean just as an example I think in the last six months you’ve given me two compliments like that was good work. And that feels good. Not so much because of the compliment but because I also see that as like oh you see me as human. And it’s such an amazing relief to be seen as human. I also understand deeply that that’s not my job for some folks. Like my job for some folks is to be the authority figure that they rebel against or to be the person that they try to please until the whole thing disintegrates and they see me as human. And that’s fine. I understand that that’s my job — to be a mirror of something in that way. But I can’t deny it feels really good when someone sees me and they’re like — they look behind the curtain of this veil of teacher and they’re like oh hi. Hi. It’s like some guy. You’re just some guy. Exactly. We can just be human together. Exactly. It’s really quite sweet. I’m glad. So it does bring me to I think one last question. It comes in two parts. If you see authority issues coming up in your own life — what to do with that — but the two parts are if you’re in authority versus if you have an authority. Yeah well it’s kind of three parts right or maybe four. There’s the authority issue where you’re rebelling against the person — screw you I don’t trust you. What do you do if you’re like I’m trying to get the authority person to approve of me. And then the authority person who’s like I don’t want to be the authority. What do you do there? And then there’s the person who’s the authority who’s completely lost on the other side — instead of I don’t want to be it — it’s like everybody’s here like I’m all alone in this. So there’s kind of four major categories. If you’re in rebellion — the most important thing is just to see them as human. All the way human. And so see the authority figure as all the way human. Give them compliments. If you see them — if they’re authentic — apologize when you’re rebelling against them. Notice that you’re just rebelling against yourself. That it’s not really them that you’re rebelling against. I remember when I was younger I used to say I’m such a rebel I even rebel against telling myself what to do. So it’s just owning that. Apologizing for that. And learning to really get in touch with your wants. So what I noticed is that somebody who has that kind of authority issue — it wasn’t safe to have their own wants. That’s one of the reasons that the rebellion to the authority happens. And so the more you can — every day write down what are my wants, how do I want to exist in the world — and be really in touch with those and act from those — then the rebellion against authority stops because what you really are after is getting your wants met and identified and seen. So that’s one. And in that — taking — being your own authority. Being your own authority right. And having your authority not come from shoulds but come from wants. On the other side — it’s the same thing that core principle is the same — which is really get in touch with your wants. So if you’re constantly looking for the authority figure to say yes you’ve done a great job — you’ll also notice if you’re really looking for that eventually you become resentful of the authority figure too. So there’s usually some way in which — because you are sacrificing some part of yourself, some part of your truth to get approval — so that resentment will naturally build. I would again apologize to the authority figure and say oh I’m sorry I didn’t — I’ve had some things that I’ve wanted to tell you that I’m not telling you because I want to keep our relationship safe. And that kind of thing is a good one. Scary but good. To again become your own authority with being able to really get in touch with your wants. The best thing to do if you really want to dissolve that quickly is to say things that you think the authority figure doesn’t want to hear from you that you think are really valuable. And just say those — start small and then get bigger. It reminds me of two things. I have worked with a lot of people who report to a CEO or report to maybe even a narcissistic CEO and they’ll be like I can’t say this they’ll get mad at me. I can’t say this they’ll fire me. And I’m like hey yeah you can. And they’re like no. I said I can prove it. There’s somebody in that C-level executive who says the hard truth to them and they’re actually the closest person to that CEO. And it’s always the case. That CEO always has one person they trust the most because they can say the hard thing to them. They don’t do it in a way that’s defensive. They’re just like oh no this is — and this is who their real thought partner is. And so learning how to say the truth to them in an undefended way — and not in a fear way — if you’re scared — if you say the truth to the authority figure and you’re scared they’re never going to trust it. Just like you didn’t trust the CEO who’s acting out of fear at the top of the room. They’re looking for the baboon who’s walking confidently in that direction. And if you’re scared of it they’re not going to follow. So that’s if you’re on that side. That’s a really quick way to handle it. If you’re the CEO who rebels against authority — or the leader who rebelled against authority and now you are the authority and so you think that if you’re too much of an authority everybody’s going to attack you — then your job is to really look for and ask the people you’re leading — what’s the structure you want? How do you want to work? What is it that you don’t know? Where do you feel unsafe? And find out that every place that they feel unsafe is a place where you’re not actually acting as the authority that you’re supposed to be. And so typically structurally — but the best way to move out of that is to say this is the process, these are the principles. So you’re not telling people how to act. You’re not telling people how to do the job. You’re telling people this is the way that we work. This is the process. This is the way we do emails. This is the way we do meetings. This is the way we solve problems. This is the way we make decisions. But you let everybody have their own autonomy inside of that. That usually creates a lot of safety but you still get all the wisdom of the group and you’re not oppressing people. That’s a great way to move. If you’re the authority figure who feels like you’re all alone in it and you can justify like I’m so smart that these people need to be told what to do but I feel so alone and nobody gets me and I have to manage everybody — the best thing to do is start asking for help. And typically what happens there is they ask for help but in a way that proves that they’re not going to get the help. So the way to ask for the help is to say this is what I need specifically and these are the criteria of what would make it actually work for me. So it’s not “god damn it why can’t you just get the sales numbers up.” It is — wow I feel like everything I’m doing to get the sales numbers up isn’t working and I really need your help to get the sales numbers up. And what I need to feel confident that the sales numbers are going to be up is that you’re tracking not just how much sales we’re making but how many incremental steps we’re making on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. So I know that the work is getting done. And how would you feel about taking that on and making it so I don’t have to worry about that anymore? It’s a very different thing. So often the way those people ask to get their needs met — to get helped — will ensure that they don’t get it. Has a very long answer to your question but there’s different angles to it. Yeah it was surprisingly long. I actually expected an answer like — yeah notice how vulnerable it is to be in authority. Right okay maybe you should be on this side because that sums it up. Do that. Do what she said. No don’t put that on me I don’t want to be the authority. Somebody will rebel against you. It’s too late. It’s over. Yeah great. Well pleasure. Thank you. Thank you Joe. See you next time. Yeah.