Summary
Joe Hudson and Brett Kistler explore the nature of anxiety through the lens of three brains: the head (constantly preparing for attack), the heart (signaling unmet needs), and the nervous system (constricting life force). Joe describes his experiment of paying attention to anxiety throughout the day with love and gratitude rather than trying to manage or eliminate it, discovering that anxiety is fundamentally constricted life force that loosens when met with genuine attention.
The conversation reveals that anxiety is a signpost to unmet needs, and that the typical response — trying to figure it out, shame about having it, or attempting to eliminate it — only creates more anxiety. Brett shares his own experience of feeling anxiety in his throat related to hiding and making himself smaller, and how loving the anxiety rather than just observing it led to more authentic conversations, addressing unmet needs, and finding pleasure in previously uncomfortable interactions.
A key insight is that much of anxiety’s constriction is actually constricted joy and exuberance. Society systematically suppresses expressions of joy (“calm down,” “don’t get a big head”), and the inability to fully feel joy contributes to sustained anxiety. Joe emphasizes that life inherently requires friction and resistance — to try to eliminate anxiety entirely is to seek death. The real freedom comes not from managing anxiety but from loving it.
Key Concepts
- Anxiety is constricted life force
- Loving anxiety versus just being with it
- Anxiety signals unmet needs at multiple depths
- Unfelt joy as a source of anxiety
- Shame about anxiety creates more anxiety
- Fear of consequences is really fear of emotional states
Key Quotes
“To love it, to invite it — I can’t wait to be anxious again. When you’re at that place, that’s the real freedom where you’re not trying to manage yourself.”
“The more I paid attention to it, the more it transformed inside of me. The more it just showed that it was life force.”
“If you start doing that process, you’re going to notice that the anxiety loosens… and then the brain is going to say ‘oh if I be with this I can get rid of it’ — which isn’t actually addressing the underlying need — and then it stops working.”
“God is a comedian playing to an audience that’s too afraid to laugh.”
“The consequence that you’re scared of is actually an emotional state. If you can love every emotional state, you’re not worried about the consequences.”
“Life requires friction. It requires resistance. A cell can’t survive without some level of friction. To try to get rid of anxiety is somewhat ridiculous.”
Transcript
Joe Hudson and Brett Kistler discuss anxiety on the Art of Accomplishment podcast. Joe describes anxiety through three brains: the head brain constantly preparing for attack, the emotional/mammalian brain signaling unmet needs, and the nervous system constricting life force. Joe shares his experiment of paying attention to anxiety throughout the day with love and gratitude, finding that the more he paid attention to it, the more it transformed and revealed itself as life force.
Brett shares how he felt anxiety as constriction in his throat related to hiding and making himself smaller. By loving the anxiety rather than just observing it, he found that avoidant behaviors decreased — within 30 seconds of feeling his anxiety, impulses to take beneficial action arose. His conversations became more enjoyable, he stopped buying stories that weren’t true for him while validating others’ emotional experience, and he wasn’t afraid of consequences.
Joe explains that anxiety was built for physical threats (short duration) but the sense of self can be under threat continuously, creating sustained anxiety. The typical response of trying to figure out anxiety or feeling shame about it only creates more anxiety. He gives the example of someone anxious about losing their job — the anxiety makes them less likely to keep their boss happy, creating the feared outcome. The real solution is addressing deeper needs, like having a direct conversation with your boss about expectations.
Joe distinguishes between being with anxiety (which can become subtle management) and truly loving it. Being with it can become “I’ll observe this so it goes away,” which isn’t addressing the underlying need. True freedom is wanting to feel it again.
They discuss how unfelt joy is a major component of anxiety. Society suppresses exuberance in children, people stop their own laughter, and pleasure anxiety prevents fully receiving compliments or joy. Joe shares being the person laughing during a silent meditation retreat, noting that suppressing laughter would have created anxiety and shame. The more authentic he is, the less shame he experiences.
Joe recommends an experiment: be with your anxiety as much as possible in a way that you’re grateful and embracing it, asking “How is my anxiety right now?” — a question designed to access the felt sense rather than a story about it.