Summary
Joe and Brett explore wonder as the “W” in the VIEW framework — defining it as curiosity without seeking an answer, or curiosity combined with awe. Unlike regular curiosity that constricts toward finding solutions, wonder maintains an expansive physical state because there’s no pressure to land on an answer. Joe distinguishes it from knowing, which is wonder’s opposite and the source of most interpersonal friction.
Wonder functions as an antidote to fear (you can’t hold fear while genuinely wondering), keeps relationships fresh (rather than assuming you know someone), drives better business decisions (the CEO who asked “what boxes do you need checked?” rather than pitching), and even correlates with longevity and dementia prevention through constant neural rewiring. The practice is more undoing than doing — wonder is our nature, and the work is removing what blocks it. Joe emphasizes that wonder doesn’t conflict with certainty; you can know your next step while remaining open that a better one might appear.
The episode includes Joe’s personal story of getting kicked out of college because he was attached to being right rather than being in wonder with the administration, and how that experience taught him that being right has nothing to do with connection or progress.
Key Concepts
- Wonder and stress cannot coexist
- Wonder is an antidote to fear
- Wonder eliminates defensiveness
- Wonder progresses naturally toward love
- Wonder is curiosity without needing an answer
- Knowing is the opposite of wonder
- Wonder keeps relationships fresh through constant discovery
- Being in the question is more powerful than finding the answer
- Cultivating wonder is an undoing not a doing
Key Quotes
“It’s like curiosity and awe put together. If you’re awestruck by something, you have a recognition that it’s out of your control — it’s something that’s beyond you, beyond your ability to maybe even recognize in that moment.”
“The power of that was being in the question. It wasn’t ever finding the answer to the question.”
“Close your eyes and imagine you are running from a tiger… now wonder how much does that tiger weigh. You can’t hold the fear if you’re in curiosity and wonder.”
“The problem person thinks they know everything. That’s the problem person — there’s no wonder in their system.”
“I can’t even decide what to think. I can’t even decide to stop thinking entirely. So if I don’t even have control over the most basic things, then how can I have control over everything else?”
“Being right doesn’t mean anything. All the people who are right the most — what has it gotten them?”
Transcript
it’s really a point of view of looking at the world follow your Wonder like it’s a trail and just follow it in the conversation about the other person about yourself in the conversation just follow it welcome to the art of accomplishment where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease my name is Brett Kissler I’m an adventurer entrepreneur and a self-exploration Enthusiast I’m here with my co-host Joe Hudson Joe is a business coach who spent decades working with some of the world’s top Executives and teams developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves each other and the world a good entry point into this model is a mindset called view vulnerability impartiality empathy and wonder through understanding and cultivation we learn to easefully drop into the view State of Mind deepening self-awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us to learn more about this podcast or courses visit art of accomplishment.com most of us spend a lot of our time feeling a subtle pressure to know things to understand our world so that we can make predictions feel safe and be seen as knowledgeable but the moment we think we know everything is also the moment we stop learning what if there’s always more to the story than we can ever know and how might living our lives from a consistent place of Wonder give us more actionable information and opportunities than clinging to what we think we know this is the practice of Wonder the W in view Joe can you tell me what you mean by Wonder is there’s a lot of ways to describe it but one of the ways to describe it is to say like we’ve all felt it before we all know that like and and maybe some of us haven’t felt it since we were kids um but that’s that’s something that we all know and and what it is it’s like curiosity without looking for an answer because when you’re looking for an answer you can just feel in your system that your system constricts a little bit or if you’re just like oh my gosh what is happening here and there’s no pressure to find an answer like an answer may come but there’s no pressure then the state the physical state remains expansive so it’s like that the other way to think of it is it’s like curiosity and awe put together right and the thing about awe the reason I use that word in particular is because if you’re awestruck by something you you have a recognition that it’s out of your control it’s something that’s like Beyond you beyond your ability to maybe even recognize in that moment and there’s only a few things in in the way that the human psyche works that creates that gratitude is another one that creates that feeling of like there’s something greater and acknowledging that you need things is another because it just all these things are outside of your control often most of the time say we don’t say gratitude like I’m really grateful that I kicked ass I mean we might occasionally but most of the time we’re grateful for things that are Beyond us and that’s the thing about wonder it has awe because we are we acknowledge that there’s something beyond our ability to even maybe recognize so that’s another way of of thinking of it that the other thing and that’s particularly important to view conversations is that you’re in the question right there is um a time in my life when this question arose and it was what am I was basically the question and I was in that question for 10 years and it wasn’t about trying to answer the question it was about being in the question I could come up with answers but every answer was based on some context you know I could say I’m my body but then I would you know be in wonderful while I’m like well which part of my body I got my body in half which part of my body is me and to realize that even that isn’t me what it what am I and the the power of that was being in the question it wasn’t ever finding the answer to the question and so that’s another way to look at wonder is that you’re in the question right it’s like when the moment you come up with an answer it’s like the search stops but if you stay in the question there’s always opportunity for some other aspect to come in I got some other aspect of yourself to be seen exactly yeah that’s beautifully put yeah how does how does cultivating a persistent State of Wonder benefit us what does this do for us there’s so many ways in which it doesn’t mean if you just think about those times that you’re awestruck like imagine a life when you’re awestruck all the time and just imagine living a life where that is 10 20 more of your life just even 10 or 20 percent more awestruck by life there’s this thought process that people share about miracles and that actually that we’re experiencing Miracles all the time but we’re so used to them or we can describe enough of them yeah we can describe like the sun for instance you can just be awestruck by the sun you can answer forever you know how it got formed maybe and how it’s working and so or you see it every day so there’s nothing to be awestruck about but if you really like just contemplate like why why Sun why Universe why Cosmos and goodness like how did it yes all this stuff happened but how did it actually come to pass that we were circling the sun it’s just awe-inspiring and it and it leads you to places um that you can’t get to any other way there’s um I was listening to out of all people recently the head of Amazon and he talked about the beginning of his day he would just wander he would just he just wanders in his mind in the Spade like that’s part of what he does because there’s a there’s a harvest from wandering or from being in Wonder and just exploring without looking for a place to land there’s a harvest that comes from that because you discover all sorts of cool stuff and so this this applies in business and in relationships and you know oftentimes when people are in relationships one of the things that you see is that they just everybody thinks they know everybody and and so they they’ve categorized everybody and then the relationship gets dull whereas if you’re in wonder it’s a constant exploration you know who I am when I married my wife is very different than who I am today and there’s constantly an evolution to be discovered in my wife and and for her to discover in me and that keeps a relationship fresh keeps a business fresh in the exact same way uh it’s it’s nice in the body like to be in wonders just feels really good it’s quite an enjoyable thing and another thing that it does is it’s really it’s quite an antidote to fear if you say do this experiment close your eyes and imagine you are running from a tiger and the Tigers is coming and it’s getting closer you can hear the footsteps you can like hear its breath it’s panting to like catch you and you’re running as fast as you can and you don’t really think there’s any way out and you know it’s about to come and pounce and now wonder how much does that tiger weigh like you can’t hold the fear if you’re in curiosity and Aaron wonder and you can’t be in Wonder particularly if you’re holding the fear so to reflect on what is what you are and wonder about immediately does something to the fear that that the subtle the more subtle fears that may be running through you so that’s another one it’s like uh it’s like the fear itself is something that optimizes us to produce a fast result and a fast output but not too not to process more deeply uh and that’s I think that’s a that’s a good thing sometimes I mean I imagine if we if we walk around being constantly awestruck by the sun and the universe that must have its its drawbacks I mean there are there are people who who do that constantly and they’re disconnected from from the world they’re not taking any action one more thing before we go there the one more thing is just to say that the the other thing that it benefits you being in Wonder is that it it um you know in today’s world it’s really not the answer right in the age of Google anybody can find an answer it’s really the right question like are you asking the right question and being in Wonder helps you ask the right questions right one person can spend their life building Google and another person can spend their life um building the local tire shop and they can both work just as hard as each other it’s just a different question that they’re living in or one person can say ask what’s the what’s the phone that everybody will use and another person will ask the question what’s the phone that’s easy to use and you’re going to get two different phones right so being in Wonder really helps you understand the value of the right questions as the last one right can help you break out of the limited context of your previous question into a bigger question yeah yeah it brings you back to that that question that I just had of uh if we’re constantly breaking out of the limited question into the biggest question of why Sun y Universe uh how do we how do we ground ourselves in that what yeah is there is there a going too far with this Wonder thing I don’t know anybody who can actually be in a Perpetual State of Wonder I’ve never seen that there’s a way in which there there’s a way to have a pretty consistent awestruck experience of the world is actually interesting I was recently uh listening to all these people who’d lived over a hundred years and I know I’ve actually met a couple as well and they something that they all have in common is that they all have this just like isn’t it wonderful you know or they’re talking about like they ate this food and it was just so amazing or they did they were doing little things but it was these little things in life that just created so much awe and joy and wonder in them and yet they were 100 years old or more and they had friends and they had family and they had careers that they had lived through and but that was the that was the the thing that they all had in common and it’s just just like kids are the same way right that they have this amazing Wonder in their worlds and they learn incredibly quickly right and and if you kill it completely you can get a task done but you might not get the right task done and so yeah there’s a place where Wonder Ebbs and flows it’s really about your access to it in the moment and and I think that there is this illusion of kind of like this person who’s constantly like disassociated from life and their in this constant state of Wonder my experiences of those people is that they’re not actually in a constant state of Wonder it you know it’s it’s good for books and stuff but but they actually are is they’re in a constant state of a disassociation where they where whatever is happening in real life is very difficult for them and so they’re their mode of being able to handle that isn’t to fight it’s it’s kind of to disassociate and so I I don’t see people who are in like a deep State of Wonder like too much I just I just don’t I haven’t seen it but I kind of expect if you are in a state of Wonder so much that you have stopped doing stuff that obviously would go too far uh but one of the things that Wonder does interestingly is it it propels you to do stuff right like I’m really curious how does this work propels you to do stuff oh wow what would happen if I you know had this different kind of business or have I changed my business in this way or if I have I looked at my wife this way or if I looked at my best friend this way it propels you to to change the way you’re doing stuff run experiments and learn when I see people in that deep level of curiosity then there’s a lot of movement in their life now if there’s other things that are happening that might stop them from taking action that would be more things like depression or being lost in their head all the time in their thought not you know repressed anger things like that that would be a stuck feeling and and I don’t know a lot of people who have that stuck feeling or anybody who has that stuck feeling who also has a lot of Wonder right because let’s say you’re depressed and you have a ton of wonder what happens you’re like huh what’s making me depressed what is depressed exactly I don’t mean what what is what part of me what’s the me that’s depressed what’s the me that’s that can see through that can see I’m depressed how does that work yeah how is this feeling of depression being like in my body right yeah and as you start asking this question the depression starts to alleviate because the depression is being created mostly because of a critical voice in the head that there’s no curiosity about right you can just turn that Curiosity right to the critical voice in the head and things will change pretty quickly if you can consistently have that state of wonder about the voice in your head not trying to solve it but just to be in awe of like whoa what is this thing constantly managing me what gives it the right what what what what makes it thinks it’s right well what what makes it think it’s it’s good at its job when it’s created complete stagnation in my system what makes it thinks as good as its job if it’s still having to manage me over the same 10 years later like what is happening here like that state of awe and wonder is going to shift a lot it’s going to create you can just feel how that creates movement so I’ve never really seen people stop doing obviously you know if you’re in a state of Wonder so much that you’re like can’t you can’t complete a sentence because you’re so in awe of the language that’s gonna get problematic I’ve just I’ve just never seen it yeah the uh the example of the old people reminds me of something I learned recently about uh dementia where there are there are people who die who have like a normal normal life and are vibrant throughout their older years their later years and then they die and their brain is uh autopsied and they have the brain of somebody who has dementia but they didn’t have it and the the difference between the people who don’t actually present it psychologically are that they have they’re constantly learning they’re constantly in Wonder um so they’re they’re constantly rewiring so even though the wiring is getting tangled it’s developing new Pathways all the time versus living in the same Pathways that are just breaking down over time and then becoming less and less efficient wow I didn’t know that that’s beautiful you can start to feel it in your 40s and and definitely in your 50s is desire to stay in the neural Pathways to stay in the routine of life and it just starts to take the joy out of life and like look at how few people you see in their 70s who are living a joyful life you know like exuberant life and their lives are great often when their 70s outside of potentially some physical pain there you know they’re retired in America at least in America they’re retired and they have a family and they you know but there’s just no wonder in it what happens to us um when we shut that Wonder down like in in the moment let’s say in a in a conversation or a business negotiation um where for example we’re worried about getting it right or being perfectly understood um and so we we shut down the Wonder what what happens then and more simply I guess the question is what is the opposite of wonder yeah the opposite of Wonders is knowing or or wanting to be maybe seen as knowing since knowing is really Impossible on one level of looking at it so the way I would say it is you know I see this all the time especially when I was a venture capitalist I saw this all the time which was people would come to me and they’d make their pitch and the the standard way of thinking about it was that they were going to come and impress me with their knowledge um show me that they had a really good business idea and then I would know that they have really good business idea and then I would give them money that would be the kind of the standard way that they would come to the meeting which is weird because as a venture capitalist I probably should know more about it than they do because I’m in 10 businesses or at least the same amount as they do and so they’re coming in with this knowing trying to share the knowing and what basically happens is if I agree with them I will fund it and if I don’t agree with them I won’t fund it which is a very limited potential to fund it right so there’s just like this very skinny chance that we’re gonna agree but if they come in with Wonder and I I had this happen once I remember I was so blown away by it um it was a great company it was very successful this CEO came in to raise the money and he was like okay so what do you need to see to to to fund what are the boxes that you need to check off and I would you know immediately told him because that would save me a ton of time right instead of having to listen to you know 10 slides on the total addressable market and what the market was like is if I would like hadn’t done that research or whatever and um and then he just went through and went through exactly what I needed to hear and he started in a place of Wonder instead of a place of knowing and he he knew that I would be more attracted to him in a Learning Journey than I would in a being told what what what is right and what is wrong and if you just think about that like you look at your friends look at your friends who know what’s right and wrong and like how enjoyable is it to be around them right I don’t know how many companies I’ve been in where I see somebody and they’re like that’s the problem person I’m like okay and then you can meet the problem person the problem person thinks they know everything they that’s that’s the problem person is they they think they’re right about everything there’s no wonder in their system they’re also probably pointing at a lot of problem people because they know it yeah that’s right that’s right so they’re not in The Learning Journey with anybody and and nobody wants to be that what people want to be is in a Learning Journey with each other you know we like to have someone who knows some stuff yeah I mean it’s great people are listening to this podcast right now hopefully with the idea that I might know something but my job is to go on learning Journeys with people my job is to ask them what they know is to ask open-ended questions to them my job is to assume that they know the best step that’s there for them and in a way that I couldn’t how could I know that I don’t know their whole history I don’t know everything that happened to them it doesn’t matter if I had the wisdom of every human being in the world except for them they still know more than I do about what they’re supposed to do next so if you’re in a state of knowing and trying to like convince people of your knowing that’s that’s the opposite and then and being attached to your knowing which is like utterly ridiculous on so many levels because knowing is only relevant based on context right meaning let’s say I know it’s it’s bad to lie that’s a context that I’m assuming I’m assuming that we’re all in the same context of you know whatever it might be say Suburban living but if I’m in the context of hiding people from a authoritarian government who wants to kill them that’s a different context but at least at that point lines more of a question you know for me it wouldn’t be a question it would be yes I would lie to the authoritarian government but there would be more of a question about the right and wrongness of it and and so everybody has their own context and so to think you know something is to not only assume that you know the right answer but it’s also to assume that you know the context of the person that you’re going around with and and it’s also to assume that they don’t have some wisdom in what they’re saying which is ridiculous we can’t be that so it’s far better to be in Wonder and then you’re in a journey with the people and you’re both learning and it’s like your Mutual Freedom instead of you’re telling them something right so how do you how do you stop uh like a shutdown of Wonder from happening this this collapse into knowing um like wonder wonder seems like it might be a pretty fragile thing sometimes like even even being afraid of not being in enough Wonder um like telling myself okay now I’m gonna walk around the world and wonder all the time oh God damn it I’m not doing it oh like so even that fear might be enough to start to cause us to start closing down how do you how do you keep the Wonder Channel open yeah it’s a great question it’s it’s a far more of a undoing than it is a doing it’s effort is one of the things that makes Wonder more difficult so but the trick is when when I say it’s an undoing if I say okay now I have to go and do wonder and I have to be in a Wonder state of mind that immediately makes it harder to be in a Wonder State of Mind but there’s no moment where if you look there’s not something you’re curious about so just keep it really simple all you have to you know just look around your room right now there’s something that’s that’s like wondrous you don’t know even how the bed sheets were made you don’t know who made them you don’t know like if the company still exists you don’t know about the detergents you don’t like and and if you happen to be one of those people who knows exactly that then you don’t know about the paint there’s never a moment especially when you’re with somebody else or when you’re in nature when there isn’t this opportunity for awe and so to try to get there takes you away but to just recognize that there’s something in you and and if you see this with like kids they’re just in a state of Wonder all the time I remember this psychological study of when children are most likely to smile when they’re infants and it’s not when they’re about to be fed which is what they thought and they did this by facial positions of what a kid would see before feeding and it’s when they’re in being engaged where there’s learning happening and young kids just love to learn until it gets kicked out of them by a parent or a teacher or something like that curiosity is our nature it’s absolutely our nature which it means basically being in Wonder and investigating and ooh it’s it like it’s in our nature and so all you have to do is undo everything that’s taking you away from your nature that’s it and and that’s it’s simple it’s just like what what is wonderful about this what what am I awestruck about what what am I curious about in a way that I don’t need to find an answer just what what am I going to say next what are some like examples or steps or pointers that we could bring from this this podcast into our lives to cultivate a deeper sense of wonder practice is good you know it’s just asking yourself what what am I in wonder about right now is just like if you just do that 10 times a day that’s a pretty tremendous way to get there um it’s a it’s really a point of view of looking at the world if you think about um a little kid and he’s picking up a frog for the first time and how they how he looks or she looks at that frog like that’s the way you can look at life that’s the way you can look at your business if you were to save just for a for a second if you had two people who were looking at a business and both of them had the same level of knowledge let’s say and one of them was looking at it with immense wonder and one of them was looking at it with like I’m trying to solve the problem what do you think is going to happen with those two people and so how do you inspire that in yourself is really just it’s just a a question of intention it’s not a question of doing it’s not a question of effort it’s just a question of getting in touch with that part and and if you ever are not there and you can’t find your way there then I really suggest looking at the context of something or questioning the Assumption of something what do you mean by that questioning the assumption is a great way to also get out of partiality um and to become impartial as well um but it means that if I say to you oh life is challenging because I don’t have enough work there’s so many assumptions in that right there’s an assumption that it’s challenging not to have enough work there’s an assumption that I don’t have enough work there’s an assumption that I should have more work all of those things in instead of there could be other assumptions there could be assumptions like oh wow I have free time to start my own business it could say oh wow there’s something here that’s asking me to an opportunity here to take my marketing to the next level there’s all sorts of assumptions that one can make about having less work one week than say the next week or one year say to the next year and so questioning the Assumption that’s in your mind is one of the quickest ways to get to wonder or in somebody else’s mind is one of the quickest ways and then also uh to question the context right so I don’t have enough work in America is very different and then I don’t have enough work in Africa which is very different than I don’t have enough work in Iceland or like they’re different experiences and so what’s happening there what like what makes you think your truth is truth everywhere or even true for you right now because I’m not having enough work for me is priceless it’s like that that’s that free time is lovely so with with every tool like this there’s there’s always ways that they can be used in a way that’s performative or inauthentic and I’ve definitely found myself in a number of conversations where it felt like the other person was pretending to be interested in me as if they were acting out of some sort of like a curiosity script and this kind of interaction feels really creepy and probing how do we how can we cultivate an authentic State of Wonder without creeping people out as we like practice and try to try to be in wonder yeah these are some of the you’re touching on some things that make like if Wonder gets a little tilted um it can become a strategy and as soon as it becomes a strategy it starts to feel creepy so I know people who are always asking questions but that’s just to avoid any kind of intimacy about themselves I know people who are asking questions because it’s their way of trying to create intimacy but if you’re trying to create intimacy it doesn’t it’s not intimacy um so yes I see that happen a lot and the the answer simply is that like don’t be inauthentic the the most simple answer is don’t use this as a strategy like have Wonder for the sake of Wonder for for the gifts that it brings for the the feelings and Sensations in your body that it creates like that awe creates and and and be there it’s far more enjoyable than to be strategic about it or to try to avoid intimacy uh those are both far more painful states of existence to be in so that’s the easiest way to say it um I guess being being strategic about it like implies that there’s a certain outcome that you’re trying to get which that’s a certain kind of knowing right or a defense you’re trying to yeah an outcome through defending yourself um and and if people are creeped out if you really want to get into wonder if you notice that like you’re asking questions and they’re start resisting you can just be and wonder about that you can be like oh what’s making you feel creeped out right now and they might say like well like I feel like I’m being probed I feel like I’m under investigation and then you can be vulnerable or correct or say oh wow what well what do you want to ask me you know you can also just apologize and say I’m sorry like yeah I was kind of I was kind of asking you questions as a way to avoid myself or to you know or as an experiment or whatever your your ulterior motive was yeah it’s it’s really all the whole thing is in a frame of mind and that’s when we get back to that thing view is a state of mind and if you start it starts becoming a technique it’ll just cease to work at least most of the time in a lot of conversations the the context of the conversation is built around us being looked at as an expert or the holder of knowledge this can happen often and work like in consulting or sales or speaking or your role in this podcast for instance how do you stay and wonder when you or your ideas are themselves the topic of discussion or in the spotlight and you’re expected to be delivering information rather than consuming it I think I gave a talk uh I think a couple three times and like the very beginning of my talk was like I have no idea what I’m about to say like I I purposely got here on the stage without preparation on purpose the only thing I had in my mind was to not be prepared when I came on the stage because I want to talk about how what what life is like in this state of just being in this moment and seeing what happens seeing what comes out so oftentimes during all these podcasts there’s I’m I am curious and and in Wonder of what I’m curious about what’s going to come out of my mouth and I’m in Wonder of what does come out of my mouth often and almost just similarly which is ridiculous this actually might make everybody lose a little faith I’m also people will tell me they’ll be like oh this thing happened on your podcast that was so great and I’m like really I said that no I have no recollection of it and and sometimes I’m quite impressed with what I say and sometimes I’m like oh that’s that’s a little off to me being in the question with somebody is far more valuable and when I think about the the idea of like let’s say you watch a normal Ted Talk where there’s somebody who’s really there explaining some piece of knowledge and it’s like it’s absolutely totally fascinating about it it’s like it’s a wonderful thing to listen to and and it’s it’s made even more wonderful if you see their own awe of this situation if you see that they’re still in the question someplace in there there’s a question that they’re still living in and then you then you really want to be there with them yeah it’s like they’re inviting you into the question with them and showing you a map of what they’ve seen so far yeah that’s exactly right and that’s a that’s a whole different way uh than like you know hey I got my TED talk I’m gonna tell you what’s what and I’m gonna tell you the conclusion to have and I’m gonna tell you there’s no more questions left like you just see people are more likely to bristle yeah you know unless they happen to agree with this person or they’ve never thought about it before so that’s the other thing and the other thing that happens when you’re in that state of Wonder as as the expert as the knower it happens to me all the time you’ve witnessed this is people are like I don’t agree with you and I’ll be like yeah I don’t agree with me entirely either like I get because as soon as I switch the context I can see oh yeah that’s that’s not true I can be speaking one moment about you know freedom of choice that there’s choice and that’s a very useful thought for somebody who feels stuck and and feels like they are you know are a victim of of things and so yeah I’ll talk all about Choice and then somebody can say you know man there’s no choice it’s all Grace and I’ll be like yep and totally it’s so true I I can’t even decide what to think I can’t even I can’t even decide to stop thinking entirely you know or forever so so yeah I don’t have control over that and so if I don’t even have control over the most basic things then how can I have control over everything else I don’t have any choice and and so if you’re in that state of Wonder there’s no personal attachment to the knowledge and there’s the ability to see the other sides of it and to start understanding the context and that’s I mean that’s where the tremendous amount of freedom is yeah right because most of our pain comes from defending an idea yeah wonder about our about our choice or our internal experience is interesting is each of these tools brings brings its own interesting twist when we direct them inward uh like what what happens when we have Wonder for ourselves and for our experience uh it’s really sweet it’s really it’s like it’s like a little Slice of Heaven it to be in a state of wonder about your internal experience I I am like there was a time in meditation for a while where I just all I did was focus on the unknown I would just be silent with my eyes closed and I would just focus on what I didn’t know it’s a really cool experience if you if you get a chance um if you want to make a chance for yourself to do that it’s so sweet and it’s also sweet because all the things that you tell yourself that inner critic just like it starts to lose all of its grip if you’re able to focus on the Wonder so when your voice says you gotta eat less you have to work out more whatever you need to have a nicer butt like and that is met with wonder what’s what’s the nicer bucket to get me then I have somebody maybe who loves me for my butt if I look in the world at the people with the nicest butts like do they have the life I want what what’s happening here like yeah there’s so much Freedom people could be at an entirely different context there where it’s like well if I have a nice butt then I’m going to get a lot of attention I don’t want the attention I don’t want a bunch of creepy guys so um or or creepy girls or girls I don’t know why I use that from the other um yeah so so yeah that’s the it’s just it’s a it’s a quite a lovely existence to be in wonder about yourself it’s far more neat instead of being like this is how I am and this is how I need to change I feel like I wonder what I’m gonna do next I wonder what’s making me do this again what’s your favorite example of a of a a moment when bringing a little Wonder to the moment changed everything for you an example recently like last night uh we we ‘ve left uh California because of the fires in the smoke and so we went to Arizona and we took our girls out to a stunning Lake and when we were driving back there is this steak house and there is um a political signs that were in contrast with my daughter’s political beliefs so my daughters are young but you know societally right now there’s a lot of fire over the political system a lot of people believe in really strong have really strong and so my girls have adopted some of that stuff and then when I see these signs on a restaurant which is pretty bold in America to you know potentially say no to half of your clientele because you’re so enamored of a political candidate so my daughters didn’t like this political candidate and I was like okay we’re gonna go eat there let’s go eat and and they were so one was scared and one was like no I don’t wanna I don’t want to deal with these people and and I was saying well how is that any different than racism like if if what you think they’re doing is is is ignorant like how how do you we’re not in control of our own ignorance just as much as we’re not in control of our own race so what makes it okay to just not even want to be around and and that was the beginning of the Wonder and so we ended up we have this new puppy and all of a sudden the some of the people around us were loud and boisterous it was you know a desert bar kind of Steakhouse thing and they were you know made the kids even more anxious for a while and then all of a sudden the dog got into like and there was like all of a sudden there’s this connection and then there were the the waiter was super nice and they were just like all of a sudden it was just like we were humans together again and as we were driving home I I heard both of my daughters see interestingly C some of the wisdom on the other side of the political argument to to be able to see like oh I see how they would view things this way given this circumstance given this thing not that they agreed with it or disagreed with it anymore but it was just this it was just like it like they their heart opened up because they were in wonder about this whole situation it was it was an incredibly beautiful thing to watch um and I think that that’s the way it is all the time we come across our knowing and we don’t want it to be messed with because we don’t want that feeling of uncertainty and it’s amazing what Wonder does is like uncertainty doesn’t matter and wonder like it’s just it’s quite lovely yeah wow that’s that is beautiful how can we expect Our Lives to change as we deepen our Wonder more joy more off quicker progress deeper relationships it changes stuckness it opens up stuckness more intimacy you know like that all those all those cool and groovy things man I it’s just life is better and and we’re more capable we’re more competent you can be certain and still be in wonder I think that’s I think that’s the complication that people have a hard time understanding you know I know in my business what the next step is I don’t know that it’s going to be the right step I don’t know that a better next step isn’t going to show up a second from now and it’s not like I’m not in Wonder of like well how is this the best step but I have a certainty over my next step I I know the next thing that I’m called to do when I’m talking to somebody I might be completely baffled by what’s coming out of my mouth which is a like a constant state of being but I know that this whatever comes out is a thing that’s supposed to be coming out right so I’m not questioning myself I’m not like I’m not like why is that the right thing is that how did that it’s just there’s a knowing of my truth there’s a knowing of of like a a process that works and if somebody comes up with something else I can totally be like oh what what am I missing What’s Happening Here what what am I not seeing and so it doesn’t stop me from being certain it doesn’t stop me from but it stops me from thinking that I know that’s what it stops me from right I don’t think that I know I just I just know what the right next step is for me or for what I’m here to do and I only know that that’s a right Next Step for instance if I’m taking the right Next Step it might be just to find out how bad I’ve done it or how wrong it is or how messed up that idea was it might be to learn it might not be to succeed and and it might be that I take that step only to find out oh I need to go back the other way so there’s a certainty that I’m living with that is not at all in conflict with Wonder and I think that’s something that people get confused about and wonder yeah I think that relates back to the uh dissociation version of like not really in Wonder but like that that story earlier in the episode yeah that’s right yeah it’s so I just I just say like being in wonder doesn’t mean that you’re not clear on the actions that you’re taking it’s not it’s not that you’re not clear on like oh I from my experience this is the thing to do and then you’re totally open that something might stand against it this time so you’re in the clarity but also ready to update what you think the next step is by constantly surveying for new information yeah exactly I mean it’s the same way that mice move right I mean mice and other small mammals are desperately curious animals but then it doesn’t make them hesitate and they they’re going about their day they’re sticking to the size of the wall collecting seeds like making decisions about left or right at every you know every two seconds with clarity and yet they have this deep level of like what’s this what’s this can I get through here you know like what’s happening what’s happening unless they’re traumatized and frees up in fear right which is what we do sometimes exactly yes you can traumatize animals too yeah so let’s let’s tie all this back into view like a like a view conversation how can can you summarize some pointers that we could bring that we could use to bring more Wonder into our our view conversations yeah the most important is just to follow your Wonder like it’s a trail and just follow it in the conversation about the other person about yourself in the conversation just follow it and if you’re gonna have to hold an agenda right if you’re going to be partial about anything be partial about staying in wonder like that’s the thing and and you’re treating it like I said like a kid holding a frog or a lizard for the first time uh also just seek what you don’t know right so oftentimes you know you’ll be presented with data from the a person my mother did this my father did this and this is how it’s affecting me and what is it then to say what do I not know so I just got told all this information and and there’s a thought process that the first thing I’m supposed to do is take all this information and then spit out a good question what if the thing you’re supposed to do is first find out all the things you don’t know because often thinks if someone tells you the story they’re telling you all the things that they know so there’s no new information but if you start focusing on what you don’t know it might also be stuff that they don’t know so that’s another thing that you can do um and then as we talked about questioning the context and the assumptions those are all ways to be you know in Wonder but more importantly it’s like to be in awe of what’s happening for that person it might be you know you have this friend and you have a friend who’s constantly telling you about how the boyfriend isn’t working and you’re just like a good stop talking to me about this right you I mean we all have this friend and or have had this friend at some point in our life who is in their Loop and then they bring us into it with a conversation every week or so and like what’s what do you and wonder about there what’s the thing that you don’t know what’s the thing that you have just like how how like even maybe the question is how do you keep doing this what is it that’s working for you here that keeps you in this relationship there’s just there’s something there always and so that’s where you can go and it’s a lot easier to find if you’re not trying to lead them anywhere because then it’s just the natural thing that arises in you all right so let’s let’s close this episode a little bit differently I’d love for you to tell me about your most spectacular epic fail Wonder face plant like a moment we’re just a little more wonder it could have gone a long way but it just didn’t have it uh oh good um let’s see the biggest one uh so in college I had the the honor of being kicked out of my first college beyond that I had the honor of having like a 3.95 grade point average and getting kicked out of my college at the same time and and that could only be done if I was in knowing instead instead of um Wonder so the way it worked was uh because of my upbringing that like rebellion was really the thing for me like that was my caricature and and uh and so I went to college and they had all these rules it was the beginning of like a stronger morality in college or the the college decided there was going to be some moral education as well as just and so and I really didn’t like it I didn’t I didn’t like it at all and so I rebelled against it that was like my thing and I was I was being a punk like there’s no doubt about it and um people would come in and put signs in the dorm and it would block the windows and you know the signs would be Christian fellowship or whatever those things were and I just take down the signs like hey if you can just cover my windows I can just uncover my windows and you know the the people of power in the room or whatever of apparent power in the room said like what are we going to do about this I’m like oh I pay rent I’m Gonna Keep on taking the signs down that was my attitude because I was I was right in my mind right I couldn’t see their context and I was right I was like you don’t have the right to do this and and there was other things you know where the different things I mean I got I got busted once drinking in my room there’s people who got busted like smoking pot like 10 times and nothing ever happened but I got busted once and I was on a roof once not correctly and whatever and I had anyways I got kicked out of the dorms or I got in trouble from one of these things that I did 355m of the California Penal Code annoying phone conversation and you know the powers that be were really annoyed with me because I was not being compliant and and I was not like buying into the whole situation and and so I went to the Ombudsman I said hey like this is ridiculous and he’s like yeah yeah it’s totally ridiculous just say you’re sorry I was like well I I’m not sorry and I don’t want to be sorry and and he was like yeah but if you don’t you’re gonna like get kicked out of college and did it like it’s a kangaroo court I mean this is the Ombudsman right the person who suppose he’s like he’s just nothing like you just say I’m sorry and you’ll get a slap on the wrist well I didn’t say I was sorry I um I had the longest Court thing that they had ever had and um I had Ras defending me I had a petition of 300 people I had um I like have my professors come in and talk about how I contributed and and all of this all it did was just piss these people off more and more and more I was like just flying in the face of them I wasn’t on a Learning Journey with them at all at all um and so you and I so then I got the response and they were like okay well so here’s our agreement we’re going to kick you out of school for a year and kick out of the dorms for life and and I had a history Professor who didn’t know me at the time say uh you said he said um how can I expect you to go out into the world and have uh healthy children if this is the way you’re going to behave wow yeah it was it was something uh so on some way that luckily I was still in my knowing after that and so I threatened to sue the school and the 355m at the California Penal Code annoying phone conversation that never landed and so there there was no charges and but the school you know these authority figures at the time they did their thing and and I mean no doubt I was an ass and so I just said I’m gonna sue you guys this is ridiculous you can’t do this and the dean of students who wasn’t involved was like yeah this is like utterly ridiculous and so he suspended me for a quarter and out of the dorms for a year and then I switched schools what I learned in that process was that being right doesn’t mean anything like having the best database doesn’t make you the best database company having we have this idea that being right is important but being like all the people who are right the most like what what has it gotten them and does it even increase their odds of success or happiness or good relationships then I remember it striking me like yeah I I can’t look back and say that I was wrong I can’t look back and say that nowadays I can’t look back and even say that they were wrong I think we were both um ignorant because we were both in and so on some level of war with ourselves and each other but we none of us gotten any closer to understanding ourselves and each other in the process none of us made any progress they didn’t have a better dorm because of it they they weren’t happier people because of it neither was I uh what was what was stopping you from being in the Wonder throughout that whole experience oh I had a self-definition of being right it was really important in my family of origin to be right you know like if there’d be debates or arguments or yells and whatever there was and if you weren’t right you were going to get it worse so you had to prove yourself to be right and so I was I identified with being right at the time I identified with a fairness and I was going to fight for that fairness and now it’s like kind of how does that help me to be right like what am I what am I do I do I want the answer to be right I don’t want I don’t care if the answer is right that’s not the answer I want to the question what am I um it reminds me of a conversation I had a a while back where somebody just like paused me in the middle of the conversation they’re like it seems like you’re being very right right now how could we optimize for connection right oh oh I see yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah that’s how I was in a conversation with the college about being right and I mean it was the fortunate piece I mean this is the the thing is like I was completely certain about this stuff at the time and it led me into a job for the time that I was suspended which was caring for developmentally disabled kids it was a job that I got quickly and I and I got promoted quickly and then I was in charge of this house of kids and these residents and I that was who I was and that’s what I was doing at the time and like talk about seeing that you can have connection with people who are is not even capable of being a quarter of his right right like developmentally disabled people is like even a thought process a complicated thought process is not really at their fingertips and yet they could be beautiful people they could be you could have a deep connection with them and and so I learned the lesson I learned the lesson that being right had nothing to do with you know anything that was important to me yeah often often their thought processes are more complicated in a different direction than you did than than you expected and there’s actually something brilliant behind it yeah or or beautifully simple that you’d overlooked yeah if you sat and wondered with these guys you there you were you were in for a treat you know there was there it was frustrating at times two no doubt but it was you were often in for a treat if you could just sit and wonder with them and see the world through their eyes you know well that wraps it up for a view and um thank you very much Joe and I wonder what our next episode will be me too oh thanks Brett it was a pleasure as always thanks for listening to the art of accomplishment if you enjoyed what you heard today please subscribe and rate US in your podcast app we’d love your feedback so feel free to send us questions or comments you can reach out to us join our newsletter or check out our courses at Art of accomplishment.com