Summary
Joe Hudson interviews three alumni of the Art of Accomplishment Master Class — Caroline (3 years out), Eva (2 years out), and Matthew (1 year out) — about how the course affected their lives long after completing it. Each describes a fundamentally different relationship with themselves, their emotions, and their decisions, though none can easily articulate what changed or why.
A recurring theme is that transformation looks less like acquiring new skills and more like losing old constraints. Caroline describes no longer having “toothaches” she didn’t notice were gone — drama hooks don’t land, and following her wants (like writing the book she actually wanted to write) produces better results than strategic planning. Eva describes a ripple effect into her family relationships that came not from trying to fix others, but from doing her own work and tolerating the discomfort of watching others struggle. Matthew describes a softer, more encouraging inner voice that replaced the judgmental one — and the challenge of not evangelizing the work to others.
All three emphasize that the experiential, non-intellectual structure of the course was key — short slogans over lengthy theory, feeling before understanding, and the relational container of partners and small groups. Joe references a Spanish teacher’s distinction: “You can do self-development work where after 10 years you can describe everything wrong with you but nothing’s changed, or the work where you say ‘what the fuck just happened, I can’t describe any of it, but everything has changed.‘”
Key Concepts
- Experiential learning transforms deeper than intellectual understanding
- Be in the unknown during identity shifts
- Stop trying to fix others if you want them to change
- Community amplifies personal transformation
- Recovery and integration time is part of the work
- The edge of comfort is where growth happens
- Personal transformation creates generational change
Key Quotes
“You can either do the kind of work where you after 10 years can describe everything that’s wrong with you but nothing’s changed, or you can do the work that you say what the fuck just happened, I can’t describe any of it, but everything has changed.”
“You don’t notice not having a toothache. You notice a toothache. But if the toothache is gone, you’re not like ‘oh it’s so great I did that so now I don’t have toothache anymore.‘”
“The strategy of how to get ahead falls away and then you’re in your authenticity and that just moves shit quicker, moves better, quicker, you’re happier.”
“Sometimes it feels like you’re falling but you’re really flying… you have to trust yourself that you can handle going off the map.”
“I stopped trying to fix other people and then the people changed. If people are going to change, it’s after you’ve stopped trying to change them and you focus on yourself.”
Transcript
I was at one of the lowest time in my entire life this is different from from anything I have experienced before in this self-exploration work you have to trust yourself that you can handle going off the map you can either do the kind of work where you after 10 years can describe everything that’s wrong with you but nothing’s changed or you can do the work that you say what the fuck just happened I Can’t Describe any of it but everything has changed I’ve for a long time wanted to talk to people who have through uh the master class for years like people have been doing it and have done it years ago and mostly I wanted to do that to learn how the effect was happening for them and what might we might need to change or want to augment about the course and just generally just how everybody’s experience was especially like year 2 years 3 years later so today we have three folks here with us and I’m going to give them a chance to introduce themselves in just a second one did the Master Class A year ago one did it two years ago one you did it three years ago and so we’re going to find out what their experiences were like and uh and what we might be able to learn from it and so let me start off with the person who’s who was uh the longest which is Caroline three years ago I I was like which one am I I was like I I know I’m not one but I might be two might be three hard to say and uh Caroline’s a writer from Berlin but is there anything else you’d like to introduce about yourself before we get started um well I’m I mean I’m not German I think is important to say my my dad loves to tell people they’re from Germany I’m like Dad I am actually American so you can say that um but I have lived in Berlin for almost six years and I write fiction and non-fiction and I help people write books awesome great and then Eva was two years ago and she’s an architect who lives I’m going to say it parttime in Panama parttime in Toronto that that might be a little premature uh do you want to say anything thing about yourself Eva she was two years ago yeah um yeah but what you describe is like the ideal life description of though I hope I I will feel that yeah yeah born and raised in Italy so 100% Italian even if moving around and yeah I love being in the sun and I love architecture and I love design and being outdoors and being with you yeah thanks yeah and you’ve been in Panama now for what three months is right months yeah three months yeah and when when are you going back to Toronto in two weeks I’m grieving having just come back from Costa Rica I understand why you would be yeah um and then uh from one year ago Matthew who is a uh consultant a coaching consultant and lives in Philadelphia is that right just outside of Philadelphia Hadfield New Jersey small town outside the city yeah anything you want to introduce yourself or say about yourself before we get started um I will say because because I’m hearing a little bit about aspirational lives we uh we live here but we uh this summer we’re spending a month in Italy and it’s our first test to have the whole family me my partner and our three-year-old daughter kind of splitting some time between the states and Italy so awesome okay so let let’s get started so first of all the first thing I’d like to know is like what what on Earth made you sign up for a $6,000 online course how how did that decision get made it’s fresh for me so I can share a a dear friend of mine who who many of you may know cat um she turned me on to the podcast I mean year like it was at least two years ago she was like a lot of people I know are are really like moving some big boulders with with this work you know and she said start with the podcast and I have a tendency to go to all in and things so I like gave myself several months actually you know over a year I would say just listening to the podcast and last summer I was like it’s time to jump in and at that point it was like I’m I’m ready um it it felt like it was a no-brainer last year yeah and what what what made you think that there would be something more in the course and then the podcast because it’s such a hard thing to describe for people we have such a hard time describing how the course is so different than the podcast what like what made you think it would be different I I knew it was depth like I I I I knew everything you were talking about had a next level of the work yeah like because I felt like the podcast a lot of times I was like no I want more practice I want more tools knowing that those weren’t the things but like so I was like I realize I’m not going to get these just by listening to this number one and number two I think the the community aspect I was like I want depth and I want I want other people that are doing this work so I think those were kind of the two big things for me awesome I want to pin the community because one of the things I’m curious about but I want to ask at the right time which is how many people are you still in contact with around the work because that that for all of you that would be something that’d be really interesting to me um okay so uh Eva or Caroline who what want to answer the question which was like what made you sign up what what got you in the door to do this I can I can share um I think it was well I found out about you through Thiago Forte yeah because I had done the building of second brain course and I was just so excited by that because I just I mean I’m a giant nerd and I like being in school so I was like very fulfilled by that course and I you know it’s been 20 years since I was in grad school so I was but it felt like it scratch this itch with that and so then when at the end of that course there was the Q&A session that you did it felt like it was the emotional psychological component to the sort of intellectual portion of building a second brain it was like the kinesthetic brain basically and I had done I mean I did my ma in Psychology 20 years before but I was you know I was in my 20s when I did that and I felt like I really benefited from doing that but I felt like I’m a totally different person now than I was so the idea of being able to revisit a lot of the themes at a different level was just it was really exciting to me so it and I was like it’s cheaper than a master’s degree so I’m up for that awesome very cool Eva what was what got you there I wish I could give you like the easy answer that I give to people that is Thiago and my partner was doing it and listen to a podcast and all of that but the real truth is that I I was at the one of the lowest time in my entire life and I had no idea what to do and I knew that I needed help somehow and Kicking and Screaming I joined the master class because some part of me knew that that’s what I needed yeah so it was a mix of deep Despair and hope yeah oh yeah yeah thanks for sharing thanks for being vulnerable appreciate that awesome so okay so what do you second question is like what do you remember about the course like what like you have the experience of this so you you have eight weeks you have um you know you have the small group sessions the one-on-one sessions you have the rapid fires with me what was your I don’t need to know like what each one of those was like or anything but like what was your experience while you were in the course like what what do you remember about being in the course from you know months to years away and let’s do a slightly different order of people so I’ll just pick Caroline what what was your yeah I was gonna say I was like I don’t want my memories distorted because I’m furthest I’m furthest back if they tell me then I’ll remember all of it um I think the things that really stuck I mean it all stuck out to be honest I mean I think I remember like we had a really meaningful hot seat there was I had a great experience with my one-on-one partner I really loved my small group and then also the themes in particular I still think about want over need I still think about those themes in terms of making decisions so those really want over need in particular um stuck with me and just just sort of thinking about like don’t there was a theme of like don’t make up some story about what you should do like what do you actually want here and that has stuck with me big time yeah Eva since you were two years off what what was your experience of being in the course yeah well it was um an intense Journey it pushed my limits like nothing else uh but in a different way too like very it really pushed but never too much um and the container was there the support was there so it felt like going through so much and at the same time with a good pace uh good support and a continued discovery of like more things to look into so I started like first week with a rapid fire coaching uh so I kind of like don’t I just like I jumped in um and I’m so glad I did and I think it put me in a position where I was more open to receiving everything that was offered and and it unlocked in me the idea that I can actually I could actually engage and like really like actively participate in the course so I remember like it was intense it was very intentional it was hands on and and also was I was held the whole time yeah I I’ll ask the next question in a second after we hear from Matthew what was your your only less than a year ago what was what was your experience of doing the course the the thing that jumped out at me the most and I say this to people all the time like I feel like I’ve been consuming personal and professional development stuff for decades and like very little of it has actually stuck and I I feel like once I got into Master Class like the prompts weren’t these outlandish things they but they they changed my view on they changed my view on myself they like changed my view of the world and in a way that I was like this is different from from anything I have experienced before in this self-exploration work like and it’s funny because it’s hard for me to like pinpoint the why but it it it feels so different being in the work seeing the the language we used to talk about ourselves and the world and have that shown to you in a new way I just I it is hard to put into words but I I felt it immediately I was like this is different this is different than anything I’ve done to try to like more deeply connect with myself in the world so so we hear that a lot especially from folks who’ve been doing like tons of self-development work we hear like right and so I’m gonna I’m going to push like what like if you can give us any hints about what makes it unique compared to the other stuff that you did and maybe it’s just practical stuff like we did this kind of thing instead of this kind of thing but I’m just curious like what what because some folks come to it first time they’ve never done any self-development work and they’re like wow and then they come to me a couple years later and they’re like that that wait this doesn’t happen in the other things we’re doing but so what what was what do you think it is that hits it I Caroline made the point which was so good um authenticity over Improvement I think the first thing was like I’d been doing this work for years with this focus on Improvement and the thing that felt so different was like no no no no that there is an innate goodness in you as a person that we are going to unpeel these layers to get to and that has everything you need whereas everything else I feel like the things that brought me into it the work I was doing with this was this I have to improve and this was like no you are good as you are yeah um so I don’t know if that fully answers the question but that felt that really felt like the distinction for me like oh wait I’m okay like I’m I’m I’m actually good I just need to reconnect to like yeah that yeah also about I’m just thinking about the experience of going through it was that I am the sort of person who will I mean you can see I have five million books like I want to get to the why really fast but this course didn’t let us do that it was so I remember you know doing exercises and doing practices and just kind of taking it on Joe said this was a good idea to try so I’m going to try it but it the fact that there were no intellectual explanations before doing the exercises and that we just had to do them and be with other people and take it as an experiment and also that there wasn’t a lot of wordiness in the program it was like you know you can read a whole book on a philosophy and not remember any of it but it was like you know authenticity over Improvement I can remember that you know I can remember want over need I can remember these pairs of words so it wasn’t it wasn’t feeding my little inner nerd um it was it was like enough that you felt it and you had to feel it before you could talk about it and that was the way it was structured so it you didn’t skip over the experiential so there was a foundation I think once we did talk about it it’s like we had a shared experience to refer to yeah very cool thanks so on on to the the the other question that I wanted to ask around this which was um how how was the relational aspect of it you have this one-on-one partner Caroline you spoke to it a little bit also there’s this like small group and so it’s something that you don’t like it’s not something done a lot in society like oh here’s a group of strangers and we’re going to go super deep with these folks how how was that in the experience for you all like what was that I’m kind of curious like how people like it feels like it should be a hurdle to get over but it seems like within a couple of like weeks everybody seems to be feeling grooving with their group so I’m just wondering like how was that Journey for you Eva do you want to give it a go ahead go ahead Matthew yeah I was just going to say I felt the way the way they set up the order where it’s like hey you have to do the work by yourself first and then there’s a partner and then like I just think that that Cadence is perfect because it’s like okay I realize I got to start just with me and then all right now I have a safe space with just one partner and now I have some other folks to bring in so that that felt by that first group meeting I was like all right I’m like I’m I’m good there he is yeah yeah I think for me so initially the idea was terrifying um of having to like show everything all my dirty laundry to first one stranger and then a group of strangers and then if I wanted to the bigger Community with a rapid fire coaching or Circle uh but it’s true like being radical and like knowing do my work first when we do it a partner and then the group and it was incredible just how like how doing that unlocked or shed light on different aspects that were not part of a curriculum but like all insecurities or fears of like how do we choose the one-on-one partner because we had to choose a partner like and be chosen and it like awkwardness and the group and like oh these are complete strangers and part of me was so relieved it was just just strangers and part of me was terrified so having to go through all that like noise and background work while doing the work was so powerful I I didn’t I didn’t believe that like doing group work would would really add so much to the process and so I but I tried to like leave my skepticism out for a little bit and just try it and and it was very powerful yeah the reason that we do those like very short slogans and there’s not an intellectual a lot of intellectual till after is that what we’ve noticed like when we do the week long which I know Eva you’ve done like the in person nobody remembers what the fuck happened the entire they’re just like what the fuck happened I only remember yesterday you’re all laughing you have that experience and I remember this um I wish I knew who this guy’s name he was a Spanish guy he said you can either do the kind of work where you can the self-development work where you after 10 years can describe everything that’s wrong with you but nothing’s changed or you can do the work that you say what the fuck just happened I Can’t Describe any of it but everything has changed yeah and and so there’s a theory about it that you’re using you know like your brain is in a different set of brain waves for that Theta and so you don’t remember in the same way but all we know for sure is that people don’t remember people don’t remember the work and so to do a whole bunch of intellectualization beforehand doesn’t really make a lot of sense until like it’s in their bones and their body um okay cool so next question is uh so now three months afterwards so so like that first three months of you’re done with the course you’ve got some ways of interacting with us maybe less for you Caroline because we didn’t have as many like other ways for people to jump in back then what was that like three months after the course the August September October like what was I’m gonna start with Matthew on this one because that smile is killing me what I was like August I was a puddle I will say like the thing the thing I didn’t account enough for and this is like one of the Lessons Learned like that recovery time every week is so important and I just scheduled my the rest of my life around master class and I was not scheduling that recovery so when August hit and that like that first week I was like I don’t want to interact with anybody like I just want to be um so yeah so August was I mean August was a month of Stillness with with with healthy movement mixed in but then by September um there was part of me that was like to this point around not knowing what’s going on in it to be like I have to go back and revisit some of this stuff because there was stuff that I only practiced for a week that if I had a month with the thing I would love to go deeper on it yeah so that felt like the thing to do and and that’s what I did I was like oh this thing felt you know like a very ripe area for exploration like the family stuff for me I went down a rabbit hole with my mom and my brothers and so that was once I kind of recovered a little bit I was like now where like what’s the lead Domino of this that I want to spend some more time in yeah that’s cool how about how about for you Caroline what was well it was um I think it was it was not quite that intense because I tend to book a fairly mellow August that’s just I mean I live in Europe so that is how we do um and also my birthday is the end of August so I tend to take a holiday around then so it the recovery wasn’t so much of a challenge um but what I found was really helpful and what I ended up doing without any particular like intention to it but it did really help me digest was I listened to the podcast a lot right after we finished so I found myself revisiting and that helped things to sort of sink in and that was really helpful and then I ended up I was lucky in that I ended up I can’t remember exactly when this was it might have been as late as October but September is I ended up going to London I have um a relative who lives there I have a bunch of friends there and a lot of my small group lived in London so I ended up having dinner in person and got to got to hang out with them and that was a really just a nice sort of feeling the community in person um so that was also a real treat yeah and and Eva how was it for you the three months after well yeah I would say the last week of the master class and the next month was like really tense like a lot of things got stirred up and needed to be looked at um it was a a profound month of really getting in touch with the want like in a way that I never I’d never experienced before um it was a month where trying to understand and think was completely useless and uh I guess I made peace with that uh it just nothing made sense and made sense at the same time um so it was uh it helped a lot to take some time on my own um just to be with whatever and um they get slow and it was um it was a lot of months of knowing I had seen things that I couldn’t unsee and trying to navigate my way through it not trying actually just letting things happen so that I could navigate through it and I couldn’t really tell what happened in August and September um it’s funny it’s like I cannot even remember what happened in August September and half of October but I was deeply like doing the work um it just uh it was like a wave that had to like come to shore um I don’t know if I’m so if if this becomes a podcast and and nobody can see people can’t see it like everybody’s nodding they’re all yeah like we all don’t know what you’re talking about it is this weird thing about I I tell people about like after after you’re doing this work it’s like if you show up at the grocery store and you don’t know what to buy that’s great but don’t force yourself to try to put it all together like that’s what the like to be in that unknown space for as long as possible I think is totally critical if you try to rebuild yourself quickly it’s it’s not as good um and so I have a question about that actually is what could we what could we have done if anything to support you all in that like transition of that month of who am I what am I what do I do how do I do like things are different and I like is there how how at all could we be more supportive in that or is it do you feel like it’s just part of what’s necessary or I wonder if there’s like a way to do I don’t know like a post-course guide or something like you know when you book like like what Matthew was saying of you know you might want to book a week or two without a bunch of plans after this course or it might even be cool to do a survey of alumni and just say what resources were super helpful to you afterward and then just if you did like a series of emails that are like hey one week after you might try taking more naps or you know very it’s okay if you still feel guilty about it which you probably don’t after this program um here’s I nap so much now by the way um yeah it’s so great um but just things that people have said like you know here’s this person who said they really loved this episode here’s a link to it you might want to take a listen this week just to revisit or just something um I’ve also seen ones where there’s like an extra call that’s like a month after the end it’s like is anybody freaking out you know yeah we do we do that now I think yeah we do that now I don’t know if we did it when I was there I don’t think we did yeah I don’t think we did yeah all right you’re ahead of me then I even think a guide like that for during because I clearly did not carve out enough recovery time every week enough integration time like I almost wish I budgeted more time for Master Class during the weeks so I wasn’t like trying to squeeze stuff in ignoring recovery especially once you start doing the emotional releases like that was something that really kicked my ass and I didn’t clear enough space after those things that’s for sure I think that’s another thing that makes the course different going back to that is that emotional release stuff I think is different than what a lot of folks are doing in especially in an online course yeah yeah when I said family stuff that’s I should have said emotional release stuff because it was less about the family and it was more about the emotion the emotional dynamics of the family that had to be released so yeah yeah totally yeah yeah that that’s so true and also because at that point you don’t even know that what you need is an emotional release of some sort like but then if someone offers that to you and you do it but it’s like oh oh oh yeah oh yeah it’s exactly what I needed and for everyone it’s different because a million emotions so whatever you needed to process but it’s true because at least like for me the resistance was still there like feeling like some sort of like edging on something and and having the possibility to again choose to to attend to something because no one can do it for you or force you to do it but just knowing hey it’s right here you want it then you choose it’s the right time for you or not but I find it helpful because uh especially with emotional release like doing it on your own is a little bit more challenging not the actual doing the release but starting it yeah it’s it’s always a challenge for us about the like in all the year-long programs that we have now we do the emotional release regularly because because we can track folks and say oh is there but like it’s a little bit scarier for us to do like big emotional releases and not be tracking people because it feels like it’s really important that especially if they’re learning stuff while they’re doing the emotional releases if something comes up we want them cared for so that’s kind of the balance we’re trying to strike in that um okay so now last major question and then uh three years two years almost a year afterwards like what like is it like wow holy shit I’m so glad like every time I’ve asked a question you all answered a little bit differently than than I intended for the question um so so I just want to ask something to the effect of like what are the like how do you view this thing how do you relate to it three years two years almost a year afterwards and so let’s let’s go backwards Caroline three years later what how do you relate to it what do you make of it well I think it was 100% worth it I think and it’s the kind of thing where I feel lucky to get to have this conversation because it’s because you don’t always make the connection as oh this is why that is easier now because I think I remember Thich Nhat Hanh saying something once where he was saying like you don’t notice not having a toothache you notice a toothache but if the toothache is gone then you’re not like oh it’s so great I did that so now I don’t have toothache anymore so there are a lot of things that are not toothache now but I don’t every day think oh yeah that’s because I did the master class it’s it’s more like it built up skills of um of not getting hooked into drama even when challenging things happen and also noticing like I had a family situation recently that I just got angry because there was a miscommunication and I just walked around the house saying I’m really angry and normally I don’t know if I would have felt comfortable doing that I was like I’m fucking furious and and then I did that for a while and then the next day I was fine and I could totally have a conversation and the other person in the situation was like I’m so sad that I’ve lost this connection with you and I said you you haven’t lost me at all because we’re having the conversation I was angry because we had a miscommunication which was based on not having a conversation but now we’re having the conversation like maybe it’s uncomfortable but it’s fine and I don’t that was not the kind of interaction that was happening before this program and also it’s now enough for me to say like I think it changed my work things I’m doing things in my work that I don’t 100% I mean does anyone know that they will pay off but but I’m like this is what I want to do right now and maybe it doesn’t look exactly the way I would have thought it would look but it’s what I want to do so it’s what I’m doing and weirdly it’s working better than trying to do it the right way like trying to write two books at once because I want them both done what is that and then this year I was like you know what I’m just going to write one of them and I finished it I just finished it on Friday in like 3 months and I was like huh maybe you should just write the one you want to write right now and write the other one later it’s just it’s just things like that they come really fast as soon as I stop for a second and say okay well what is the what do I really want to do right now the yeah um so those are my not toothaches that I think I the toothaches I no longer have because of having done Master Class yeah it’s such that what you just said there about work it’s such a hard thing to describe to folks and I’d love I love your description of it of that yeah they shouldn’t be working it’s not the right way to do it but just somehow everything’s working better everything like what what like and and it’s not it’s like it the best I can describe it as is that the strategy of how to get ahead Falls away and then you’re in your authenticity and that just moves shit quicker moves better quicker you’re happier yeah okay Eva two two years yeah two years after yeah I again like sometimes I I’m surprised that I still think oh no I haven’t really changed and I’m like ha like inner parts of me really laughs uh it’s so not true um the awareness of seeing the patterns of that like not noticing like of sorry of noticing that you don’t have a toothache anymore it’s like it’s a muscle that is just like alive now and noticing how being stuck in Old patterns and in avoidance for me especially it become so painful that I don’t want to do it anymore maybe I resist the want but that but like spring is there like it’s like it’s like activated wants to jump out it’s like no like this is you try you can try to contain it but it’s it’s your own choice you can suffer now if you want but you can also not suffer uh and that’s the most powerful thing ever I keep fighting of course but less and less I guess um and yeah the authenticity of just not trying to make sense of everything and going a bit with what they want is and seeing like I could see especially in the last year how it had this ripple effect in my family um like I had to I struggled with that so much because I got to a point where maybe I could see patterns in other people and having the strength to bring it back to me instead of trying to fix others and bringing it back to me my experience my everything and enduring the suffering and the pain in myself and seeing others uh not not having what I have thanks to the master class uh and still then I can see how especially in the past few months things are unraveled in a way in my family that I could not be happier and I and I was able to show up in a way that it would have been impossible for me like a couple of years ago so yeah not only like in my personal relationship because I’m looking up at my partner deep into the work too so we have a shared language but with people who I’ve never even done therapy like it just like and it’s still everything changed I love that juxtaposition that you just said and I think it’s such an important thing it’s like you you you named what I see to be the steps which is like you did the work on yourself then you stopped trying to fix other people and then they changed you know I mean you’re like I’m not focusing on other people I’m going to focus on myself and then the people change like if people if you’re if people are going to change it’s after you’ve stopped trying to change them and you you focus on your that was beautifully said Matthew how about you so you’ve only you’ve only been whatever nine months out so what but it’s so interesting because initially I remember there was a hurry up and integrate you’ve just done all this great work now hurry up and integrate so that was the first thing I’d be like don’t you dare like um so that was the first thing I had to be with and then Eva I’m so happy you said that because I I was so excited about having done the work I wanted to share it and I had to realize that I was sharing I was wanting to share it because like hey and you can change your life too with this and that now got to go in that post guide like hey we say it will never yeah people are going to do that no matter how many times we um but so you know I I would say those are like the first couple of stumbles out of the gate and then it was like oh right like I can I can be so slow with this work and also like the the thing that has really helped me is without the intention of doing the work just and and and these words resonate every day now because of all of you like it is more of a focus on a way of being and the way of being in my life now just feels easier like it doesn’t mean things haven’t been hard it doesn’t mean we’re not dealing with you know difficult things but my relationship with those things is so much different my relationship with my emotions is so much different and I think that is a thing that I’m like the less again the less trying I do the more I can just show up in this way whether it is you know my two brothers like at each other’s throats which was one of my family things after Master Class where like I would have handled you know very differently um so yeah that that I will say it just feels like this how do I want to be today like just feels like the voice in my head that is that is encouraging me to you know continue to connect to that authenticity and even when I screw up I’m like you wanted to do a little bit better than that and also I’m not going to judge you for it but maybe next time like it just feels like a softer more encouraging like when I’m not accomplishing the things I want to accomplish like it’s not with judgment it is like with kind of care and with Wonder um so it just it it it feels it feels different the way I interact with myself and the world each day even knowing I haven’t integrated everything that that thing is true every day that’s cool and can I add something to the the voice in the head because I didn’t I didn’t mention that at all for like my two years post master class but I think that is an ongoing process for me for sure but um it just changes perspective on life on your identity on how you relate to people how you relate to yourself on stories limiting beliefs it’s just such a game changer is one of those things that of course you you would try immediately you want to try to fix eliminate make better and once you start like loosening up a little bit around it is just a new way of seeing life and also relating to people like sometimes I feel that I’m interacting with a voice in the head in someone else it’s not even them anymore and sometimes I see that like oh actually right now I’m acting out the voice in my head uh let’s step back so it gives me ability to not only step back but also giving like the means to to kind of really be with that because it’s it’s different from like meditating and seeing with your thoughts are arising and leaving and it’s not you that kind of inter like not personal and it’s richer in real life real time constant you can see it everywhere and everyone it’s such an enriching way of looking at life and experiences it’s such a gift to remember that that’s a possibility I always have yeah okay so sub question on this so I I one of the open questions I have about the course is this so for a while I just thought the people who jumped in with both feet got the most out of the course right like all three of you jumped in with both feet just like bam I’m here I’m in it to win it recently I’ve had a couple um I’ve had a couple like correspondences from people from years back who were like that I I I I hardly noticed in the course because they were so quiet they were so in the background and they’re like life has changed Everything’s changed thank you so much um I still believe that the more you put in the more you get out I maybe they were just putting in in different ways I wanted to hear what your thoughts were both about like what you put in how you get out and and and how we could potentially encourage people to if they’ve signed up for the course to either jump in with both feet or jumping in a way that allows them to have the most out of the course like what what what can we do better on that do you all think I have a little bit of a thought there yeah please I think there was a really lovely image and I wish I could remember who said it but it was somebody in either Circle or in our small group meeting or something and there was this sense there was an image somebody shared of a bunch of people skydiving together and he’s like um sometimes it feels like you’re falling but you’re really flying and I thought about that image like at least once a week since then and oh I think that part of the experience was about jumping in the way that feels like a big leap for you so that you can feel this sense of whoo this is a little this is a little big for me and that’s going to look different for everybody um and so I think that getting to that place so that you can feel this tension of am I falling or am I flying you have to get Beyond playing it safe I mean that’s something that’s shifted as well is that I’m now kind of addicted to being in that place um like I used to I don’t know if you do this Joe but because as a podcaster but like I used to write all these questions for guests and I still get people I had somebody who’s like a New York Times columnist I didn’t prepare a single question I was just like I’m just going in and I’m going to see what we find like just really being in this space together because I know something is going to happen that would have made me throw up when I started the show 9 years ago but now I wouldn’t do it any other way but it’s like you have to take the context of your life look at what your safe kind of space is and and push to the edge of it and then see how it feels to do the course like going beyond what the you who came into the course is comfortable with because then you’re going to see that you’re able to do more than you thought that’s really really well said yeah and by the way absolutely I I have absolutely learned that preparing doesn’t serve me like if there’s 100% preparation 5% preparation serves me 0% preparation doesn’t serve me but I I need to feel like it’s alive and it’s there like I might have a loose outline in my head that I’ve thought about for five minutes right before the podcast which is what’s happening here and now but like in general it’s like I I want to be in the moment want to be present so much so that you know I don’t read the chats because I want to be so in like when we’re doing Zoom calls I don’t read chats because I want to be so in it with everybody and not be thinking yeah because every time you prepare questions you go in there and then they’re like oh yeah back in that time when I was a submarine captain and you’re like what like obviously we’re talking about that now like fuck the questions like tell me about the submarine exactly and if you prepare too much you lose it but it’s like you have to you have to trust yourself that you can handle going off the the map because I think a lot of people come into a course like this where it’s like it’s going to be structured you’re going to do these things it’s all going to be handled it’s like oh great okay I can play in my little dance space but it’s it’s like well yeah we’re doing that so that you can jump out of the space and then see that all of it still works yeah very that’s yeah really well said any other thoughts Eva and Matthew it feels unachievable like when you see the amount of work every week you’re like this feels unachievable and I think like but after that first loving accountability you’re like no one is going to be perfect in this and there may be like that that may be someone’s goal to be perfect in this but that as soon as that exercise was introduced it was like I can show up to this in support of the people that I’m working with because I do think I appreciate how important that is like hey it is important that you show up for this for the other folks but in terms of the work you’re doing and how you’re deciding to show up like as soon as that Grace was given I was like oh okay like I’m I’m not gonna I’m not going to bat 100% for this week and that’s okay and I’m still going to get something like there is not a week even if you don’t even if you do the minimum that you’re not going to get something out of and I think that is just a reality that you are coming in wherever you are you can try to do it all you can try to do the minimum amount and like regardless of where you start and where you end like you’re not going to not get anything from it like and it might be the biggest risk not to do it perfectly right you know there’s like the people who do every single I mean I am somewhat guilty of that spreadsheet with you I love a spreadsheet but it’s like to be the person who shows up having done 80% of that that might be the risk that shows like I’m still valuable in this community even if I don’t have the perfect spreadsheet yeah yeah yeah it’s like going going against the grain of what your usual you is like if it’s someone who always wants to share everything like write everything talk engage with a million people what it’s like to take a moment before being the first one to raise a hand what is like to actually do it instead and like own it 100% or like what is like to act as someone who would there’s a lot of room for experiments so I think like what I would say is like more than jumping in completely or holding a little bit like far back is like how can you do something you would not normally do um knowing that it’s okay like we’re all here doing it uh that is a I think I don’t know if like maybe someone could find a question that it’s true for themselves because they know if they are playing it safe and maybe it’s fine um but just being very intentional like I don’t know if there’s a way for everyone to be very intentional every week with whatever we’re doing they take charge and I think that that is to me I think the most powerful thing just reclaiming your ownership of every single interaction you have with the group and and then dealing with the consequences meaning your own thoughts yeah beautiful that would have been an awesome prompt up front the like hey how would you normally show up for this thing and challenge yourself to like not just lean into that like that prompt to experiment while in it like yeah I love that prompt I also love the prompt of like you know your Edge just it needs to feel a little bit like falling a little bit like flying that’s where that’s the place that’s great yeah thank you for that awesome so uh last question that I said I was going to ask uh and then if there’s anything you want to add which is um are you still in touch with your folks are like the people that you do do you still have relationships with the people you did the master class everybody’s nodding yes yeah yeah that makes me so happy that I think it’s so important to us you know I think generally the only discount that we give for anything is a community discount because we know how powerful it is for having people who do the work together and but also the other part is like we want to create experiences where people where people create a community so they have each other to do the work with and so because we don’t want people convincing folks to do this work ever that’s fantastic that’s so good to hear that that’s still yeah that’s cool we’re trying to do in person we’re still juggling you know between New Jersey New York Pennsylvania yeah but yeah I think and Caroline you mentioned that experience you had right after like I think that everybody who I’m talking to like they’re craving some in-person Community around this work yeah that’s part of why we do the reunion for people who’ve done the deeper work but it it’s so hard because we have such an international clientele and so many languages and you know yeah it’s always fun to like look out and see like somebody’s on a beach in Vietnam somebody’s like hanging out in like Norway with snow in the back what were you gonna say Eva yeah but it’s incredible how people like really want then to connect and want to come to reunion I was so impressed by some people who like I’m like how can you find the time like it just like makes no sense for them to be here and it makes perfect sense for them to be here and everyone has this yeah and I also I never thought I would be those people awesome so that’s where I would end it however is there anything else you all want to share just thank you yeah you’re welcome and thanks for this opportunity to to revisit I think it’s it’s always good I think to have a moment to make that comparison yeah because again if you’re just going along and things are working well it’s you don’t necessarily take that moment which is really valuable yeah it’s and when I remember in my own Journey there was like the time when I was like working working working is it making a difference is it making a difference is it making a difference it’s not it is oh my God is it is it not it is like all that stuff and then there was like the moment of like clearly shit has changed you know and maybe I wanted to go faster but clearly shit has changed and then there’s like the now it’s like those moments of something comes out of left field that reminds you of how it used to be and you’re like oh my God I’m so grateful I can’t like I don’t even recognize that way of being anymore and but I can now see that I used to do that and such an interesting thing in the Journey of how we relate to the journey itself how how we change in our relationship with the journey itself yeah and this this thank you and this kind of different way of feeling gratitude because even just now that you said thank you is like a deeper different thank you yeah it just it seems so simple but doing gratitude after master class is different like right and even just that I’ve seen what a difference it makes I will add to that I you know I this feels like a like a generational level up like I for myself for my family for my daughter like this because it helps me see and this goes back to like my inability to integrate things historically it’s because I wasn’t really understanding how I was relating to work how I was relating to self how I was relating to family and this just it felt like putting you know putting on a a a perfect set of lenses to kind of see the world from an authentic perspective and I just it’s like it is a gift that it will serve Generations long past me and I’m so grateful for yeah and I hadn’t thought about I think about it that way in my own you’re making me misty as well but um I I think about that for my own work you know where I’m like I know that the work that I’ve done is like literally makes me jealous of my children sometimes you know where I’m like oh you had such a great childhood I didn’t have that and um and I I view it as that as like this gift to others I’ve never viewed until this moment that gift and I always think about the people who write me and say my life has changed and my relationships have changed I’ve never until this moment thought about and it touches me very deeply that um that like it’s generational changes happening everywhere so thank you thank you for that you’re welcome my mom thanks you too she was like she was like your grandfather was this way your father was this way you were this way and now I see that like that’s starting to change like well you can tell her she’s welcome I definitely will all right thank you everybody thank you very much good to see you so much thanks so much you’re welcome