Summary
Joe breaks down the mechanics of most fights: shame being passed back and forth like a hot potato. “No I’m not bad, you’re bad.” Each person’s defense feels like an attack to the other, creating an escalating cycle where both people feel they’re defending themselves and both feel attacked.
He offers two ways to break the cycle: (1) stop seeing anyone as bad, so there’s no shame to pass, or (2) stop defending yourself. When you stop needing to be seen in the moment and simply listen, the other person often becomes willing to see you once they feel heard. The secondary benefit is profound: not needing to defend yourself means you can see your own inherent goodness, becoming immune to shame.
Key Concepts
- Your defense feels like an attack to the other person
- Not defending yourself reveals your inherent goodness
- Letting go of being seen allows you to be seen
Key Quotes
“Typically what happens in a fight is that we’re passing shame back and forth. No I’m not bad, you’re bad.”
“Both people feel like they are defending themselves and both people feel attacked.”
“If you can drop that experience right now and say I don’t need to be seen at this moment… I can just actually listen and find out what their reality is.”
“Nobody walks away from a fight feeling like oh wow I feel great about myself. But if a fight starts and you go, oh I’ve done nothing wrong, and you can see yourself clearly and listen to the other person, you actually walk away feeling great being in a fight.”
“It doesn’t even matter if this is a fight between a man and a wife or like NATO and Russia.”
Transcript
typically what happens in a fight is that we’re passing shame back and forth no I’m not bad you’re bad no I’m not bad you’re bad right and so the first thing that that requires is for you to think that somebody’s bad right if you can get over the idea that somebody’s bad anybody’s bad then the fight just falls apart but the other thing that can also make that fight just fall apart is the idea that you don’t have to defend yourself because the way the fight typically works is I feel attacked so I’m going to defend myself my defense makes you feel attacked so I’m going to defend myself this defense makes you feel attacked and so you have to defend yourself and back and forth it goes so it’s like you know no that’s not what I said you said this right that’s not what I said or I said that because you know I said that you were ugly only because you asked me like how ugly am I so I was like well you’re about this ugly so I had no choice right and so so I’m sitting there saying like I’m not wrong like understand me see me but you’re hearing wait you just called me ugly again right like and so it’s like this back and forth thing that happens where and you listen to yourself in the next fight that you have and just go oh wait and can what I’m saying that defends that I think is defending myself be seen as an attack because that’s what I see in in couples that are fighting all the time each of them wants to be seen and in their attempt to be seen they’re defending themselves and that defense seems like an attack to the other person and so both people feel like they are defending themselves and both people feel attacked and so you can either stop seeing that there’s someone wrong so there’s no shame to go back and forth in this shame hot potato or you can realize oh there’s nothing to defend if you can drop that experience right now just for a short period of time and says I don’t need to be seen at this moment I can be seen in an hour but in this moment I don’t need to be seen I don’t need to defend anything I can just actually listen and find out what their reality is and see that truth allow that truth to be there not as like the ultimate truth but just as a truth of right this is where they are I can hear them I can understand them when they feel heard then often times they’re at that point wanting to see you and so that’s when you don’t need to let like if you hold on tightly to trying to be seen you’re going to push being seen away and so that’s how that fight works almost every fight and it it doesn’t even matter if this is a fight between a man and a wife or like NATO and Russia right like it’s like it happens like both people feel like they’re defending themselves on some level for some reason and both people feel the other person’s defense is an attack and it just goes back and forth there’s also the secondary benefit of not needing to be seen it’s because what it requires is you to actually see yourself so in a fight if you see yourself as bad or you see the fact that you could be bad then there’s always going to be something to defend so the more that you learn not to defend yourself the more you can start to notice your inherent goodness you start to become immune to shame because when you see people shame you it’s like oh you can just see they don’t want to feel bad about themselves or don’t want to feel out of control and so if somebody else can’t see you and you recognize that like they’re not capable of seeing me right now the only option for you to get to peace is to see yourself oh yeah here I am and I actually love this person and I’m not trying to hurt anybody and I I can listen to them and I want to be here with them and I’m I’m not going to take abuse I’m I’m going to draw my boundaries whatever it is but you can just see that inherent goodness in you in yourself but as long as you’re defending yourself you you can’t see it nobody walks away from a fight feeling like oh wow I feel great about myself but if a fight starts and you go oh I’ve done nothing wrong and you can see yourself clearly and listen to the other person you actually walk away feeling great being in a fight.