Summary
Joe explores the difference between being with someone and being in someone when it comes to empathy. He shares an example of working with a highly logical CEO whose conviction was so strong that Joe empathetically bought into arguments that were actually logically inconsistent. This led him to discover that highly intellectual people are often more logically inconsistent than others, partly because they have a harder time emotionally feeling the inconsistency.
The core teaching is a simple but powerful technique: place 10-20% of your attention in your own body while engaging with someone else. This self-attunement allows you to actually be with the other person rather than absorbed in them. When you’re fully in someone, you’ve bought their story and their emotional experience. When you attune to yourself first, you can see what’s actually going on — and that’s where real transformation in relationships becomes possible.
Joe connects this to the common dynamic in relationships where one partner is more logical (and feels “right”) while the other is more empathetic (and absorbs the other’s conviction). The empathetic person literally feels the other’s certainty and mistakes it for truth.
Key Concepts
- Empathy is being with someone, not in someone
- Self-attunement prevents emotional absorption
- Logical conviction hijacks empathetic people
Key Quotes
“I call empathy it’s like being with somebody without being in somebody but often times we find ourselves in somebody.”
“People who are highly logical, very very thoughtful people often are more logically inconsistent than people who aren’t highly intellectual and they have less of a capacity to see it.”
“Just putting 10% of your attention, 20% of your attention in your body — as soon as you can feel your own system, so not all of your attention is in them but attuning to yourself, then you can attune to them in a real way.”
“When you’re fully in them you’ve bought into their story, you’ve bought into their emotional experience. But if you attune to yourself then you can see them for what’s actually going on.”
“Fighting is all about figuring out how you can transform together and if you’re in the person it’s very hard to see yourself, it’s very hard to have any kind of transformation.”
Transcript
so the deal is that it’s sometimes very hard to find out who’s having the emotion when you’re like deeply empathetic right so I call empathy it’s like being with somebody without being in somebody but often times we find ourselves in somebody so the classic example of this is that I uh I had this uh CEO that I was working with and super logical super logical and would just make these like really really great arguments and I would just buy into these arguments that they were making and then one day I’m like wait a second that that didn’t make any sense that didn’t make any sense at all and so I started doing the research and I found out actually that people who are highly logical very very thoughtful people often are more logically inconsistent than people who aren’t aren’t highly intellectual and they have less of a capacity to see it and I was like wow that’s really strange because they they have a harder time emotionally feeling the inconsistency is my theory and so anyways what was happening is they were very convicted to the thought they really really really believed it and I was empathizing and I was like yeah I’m I also feel your conviction yes you must be right and so I wasn’t listening and and now I can see this all the time I can see these very emphatic very logical people making and like watch news you can see it making these completely irrational but everybody’s buying in because they’re empathetically they bought in they’re in the other person and so this happens in lots of different ways for instance somebody can be really anxious and then all of a sudden you’re like wait I wasn’t nervous about that 10 minutes ago and now I’m really nervous about that and so in a relationship this can be incredibly challenging as you’re finding out right now like it can be incredibly challenging because you don’t know where you begin and they end like are they sad or you sad like what’s actually happening here so there’s a great trick on this which is just putting 10% of your attention 20% of your attention in your body as soon as you can feel your own system so not all of your attention is in them but attuning to yourself then you can attune to them in a real way when you’re fully in them you bought into their story youve bought into their emotional experience you’re feeling their story you’re feeling the emotional experience but if you attune to yourself and then you can see them for what’s actually going on oh they’re really convinced of this oh they’re illogical in this oh they’re really sad and then you can actually be with them you don’t have to be in them and the weird thing is that what I notic is that when people are bought into the story like you see this all the time where like friends are saying oh he’s such an and I was like yeah he’s such an and they all kind of like nod and then they walk away from the conversation they might feel a little better for a little while but like 10 of those conversations later they all feel like all the time after these conversations we’ve all had the friend that’s like I don’t even want to go over to the friend’s house because they’re just going to about the boyfriend again it’s like the same old routine story whereas if you’re actually with them oh I see that you really think that they’re an what’s going on like and being curious about that instead of buying into the story then there’s just a lot more room for the transformation which is what fighting is all about fighting is all about figuring out how you can transform together and if you’re in the person it’s very hard to see yourself it’s very hard to have any kind of transformation so the other thing that happens is that often times as we talked about you have this relationship and usually one person’s more logical they feel like they’re more right and the other person is more emotional and they’re more empathetic that’s that’s a standard not always but it’s a standard Dynamic and so that’s how that works to some degree is that the empathetic person is like oh they feel like they’re right and I’m feeling them so they must be right right and so that’s like part of the thing that makes it all so convoluted so just putting some attention in yourself allows you to be in your own system and this also helps you like calm your nervous system down when you’re in the fight putting a little attention in yourself separates you from them in a way that allows you to actually be with them and it calms your nervous system so it’s just like a really cool hack especially for the empathetic people like you