Summary
This is a follow-up coaching session with Christopher and his wife Sadie, who joins for the first time. Sadie has been holding space for Christopher through intense trauma processing — hours every day for an extended period — and has reached her limit. She feels guilty about this because she believes she should have unlimited capacity to support her partner. Joe traces this pattern back to her childhood, where she learned that her job was to manage other people’s emotions and never show vulnerability herself.
The session takes a powerful turn when Joe identifies that the exhaustion is actually unexpressed anger. He guides both Christopher and Sadie through verbal anger expression — first “victim anger” (you’ve done this to me) and then “dominant anger” (I will not let you take my life). Both forms prove essential. Sadie, who appeared to be the stoic one, delivers a ferocious expression of dominance over their shared illness that visibly energizes both of them.
The key insight: instead of one person caretaking the other’s emotions, they can be together in the sadness, together in the anger, together in the victimhood — without anyone needing to fix or hold anything. Joe closes by noting that telling yourself you should be able to hold space is actually the thing preventing you from holding space.
Key Concepts
- Exhaustion from caretaking is unexpressed anger
- Both victim anger and dominant anger need expression
- Being together in emotions rather than caretaking
- Telling yourself you should hold space prevents holding space
- Holding it together blocks support
- Anger unresisted is determination
Key Quotes
“The exhaustion to some degree is unexpressed anger.”
“You can be together in the sadness of it and you can be together in the anger of it and you’d be together in the victim of it. Nobody has to take care of each other here. You can just be together.”
“Telling yourself you should be with it is actually not being with it. Either you’re capable in that moment or you’re not and that’s fine.”
“As any of us learn to love the anger and learn to love the sadness and learn to love the victim, we learn to love it in everybody.”
“I never want you to deal with my emotions. I just want you to be with me when you feel like you can.”
Transcript
welcome to the art of accomplishment where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease I’m Brett Kistler here today with my co-host Joe Hudson you might remember the coaching session we published last month between Joe and our guest Christopher well we’re back for round two this time we have Christopher’s wife Sadie joining us in this session the three of them explore strength and vulnerability including the vulnerability of anger and other big emotions so once again I want to remind our listeners that this is coaching the conversations we have on this podcast are not intended to diagnose treat or cure any disease or mental health disorder thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoy it so uh you you all listen to the last recording how what what how was it for you Sadie to listen to it what how would it bring up in you I mean yeah well Christopher talks in it about how I can get triggered when he’s really emotional or really sad and scared so listening to 30 minutes of him being sad and scared of course was triggering me it just talking about it trigger me but it was really nice I mean yeah it was sweet how you held space for him at the end that was yeah that felt really nice to hear yeah what what is it that that triggers you before I’m jumping right in and as as you might have found out I have that tendency to do um but be before I do I’m wondering what what would you like out of this session that would be the best case scenario for you I mean I’m really just open to where it goes um I think just getting you know getting closer with Christopher building our connection um getting more comfortable uh with how how he’s feeling with where we are um but really I don’t have like an end goal Christopher and I talked about that earlier too before this like oh what do we want from this and I am just open I have no expectations I guess okay just and what I’m hearing you say is you want deeper connection with Christopher and you want to be able to have it sounds like empathy is that right have empathy for Christopher while he’s in while he’s in it without feeling uncomfortable yeah okay yeah that sounds good that sounds like that sounds like something that’s possible so so then then yeah please please yeah so I won’t I want to add to that something that listening back to the episode I did with you Joe um it kind of came off a little bit from my end like oh Sadie’s so uncomfortable with my emotions and like the backdrop to that uh was that yeah neither of us had any idea of how much trauma and shit was in there and so ones that those defenses broke say do you have yeah she’s seen now things that should potentially only be reserved for you know trauma Specialists or parents caring for a kid and so she’s she’s done that a lot and then I feel like now when I’m starting to get a grasp on it and be able to I found my connection to myself and I can hold space for me now uh I feel like that has kind of traumatized her a little bit like being with all of that shit um yeah so she she’s shown me a lot of empathy I just want to stress that it’s just the last year it’s just been like yeah you’ve come out and said I I can’t hear you cry more or I can’t like it’s just it’s too much uh yeah so just to balance it out a little bit um yeah that was a lot all right yep so Sadie I just confirming like how do you do you feel how how if at all do you feel traumatized by his what you’ve experienced uh him going through I mean it’s more exhaustion yeah I think and it’s it’s not every once in a while that things come up it’s you know all the time every day for hours every day and it’s just been of course it’s a lot for Christopher but for me it’s it’s just been so much for so long that I think I’m just tired and it’s hard for me to yeah I guess feel I feel a little hopeless that this is just what it’s gonna be forever yeah Okay so what in your mind what’s the right amount of time that you’re you should be holding space for him like what’s like what’s what’s I know that’s a silly question but like what it really not just your mind but like your whole system what is it what do you tell yourself you should be doing here um yeah I don’t know I think um sometimes it it just is so overwhelming and he has me to come to and talk to and I carry that burden but I don’t have I don’t have that same support yeah and you know so I I don’t know the amount of time it’s just more that it’s I need it too sometimes if that makes sense yeah yeah that makes total sense what what made you sad in the question like the question was what how much time do you tell yourself you should be doing that and I like even now I hear I see that as soon as the question comes there’s a little more sadness what is it that creates sadness there um I think I feel like a really bad partner because part of me feels like I should I I should have you know unlimited time I should have unlimited space for him yeah so I feel I feel really selfish that it’s just been recent I think that I’ve been speaking with Christopher really honestly about how I’m you know I’m I’m kind of at my limit and and I can’t carry more so I feel I feel guilty because I know Christopher needs that support and I just don’t feel like I can give him everything yeah yeah so so what I’m hearing you say is that there’s some part of you that feels like you should be there all the time every day 24 hours and there’s some part of you that recognizes that that will make you explode yes that is spot on okay and but the other thing that I’m noticing is I heard in the last conversation with Christopher that that he very much like he said I would pay good money to hold her as she yeah and so yeah yeah yeah to hold her while you were going through your grief in this messed up situation and and what’s preventing that if anything yeah I mean your connection course was really nice in that aspect because it not I don’t want to say forced me but you know there was exercises where I needed to you know you need to participate in so I was kind of had to show that vulnerable emotional side I don’t know why I just blocked that off I’m not sure mentally you’re telling me that you block it off and you have just cried in front of a stranger twice yeah I’m ready to explode so so you said you don’t know why what if you had to guess what what’s the reason why you don’t share your pain in this situation oh that’s a hard question I’m trying I’m trying to really guess I I think I I just so I don’t know um I mean maybe I wasn’t you know shown how to be vulnerable as a child never really felt that type of safety where I could go to family members and cry or you know I’ve always been really independent my entire life so I think that’s subconsciously I just like know you can handle your own stuff you know how much are you told that your job was to not just handle your own stuff but take care of other people’s emotions in your oh all the time yeah yeah so I’m curious what what would you like to say to the people who taught you not not I don’t want names or anything like that um what I want is for you to just what would be the feelings you could express to them right now if you were to express to the people who taught you that your job was to take care of them emotionally as a child or as a teenager yeah uh I mean I I mean I’m disappointed and I’ve I’d be disappointed with them so I would tell them that they failed they they failed me in that aspect and I would yeah I guess just recognition I would want them to recognize that I carried that weight so can you do it like as if you’re I’ll be that whoever those people are I’ll be that and you speak to me directly okay um I can just feel the emotions bubbling over yeah um I’m enjoying it I’m enjoying I’m enjoying your emotions dude do people cry on this podcast do you this is the time oh my God I had once one person once try not to cry the whole podcast and then they we stopped the podcast they were actually in my office at the time and then they just held me and sobbed for 20 minutes because they held it all in which was horrible for that I would like it made me so sad so yes please okay that makes me feel better at least because they’re these questions are really bring in the tears but um okay so if you are that person and I should speak to you yeah what would you directly say you tried your best but you you ultimately failed me and I needed you and you were never there and while you taught me Independence and you know how to be strong and resilient you didn’t teach me how to be vulnerable and you didn’t teach me how to ask for help and now I’m trying to work on that and I’m trying to change but it’s become this personality that I’ve developed where I’m I do everything alone and I don’t need help when deep down I do and I’m mad at you for that yeah yeah you have every right to be mad at me ah yeah I know that’s not what they would say no no no yeah yeah so here we are and you’re actually expressing an emotion with me and being vulnerable not just with me but with whoever will be listening to this podcast and your names involved so you’re fully doing the thing that you have problems doing apparently so here’s the question what what if anything makes it harder to do it with Christopher wow yeah I think I mean there’s part of me that just feels like I shouldn’t feel this way um and I kind of Gaslight myself like no you’re fine toughen up like deal with this and whose voice is that my negative voice in my head yeah who if it wasn’t yours who’s whose would it be like who said that to you when you were young toughen up oh my parents yeah just toughen up and and deal with it on your own yeah like emotions were never welcome yeah and also I think uh so what what makes you still listen to your parents voice yeah I don’t know I think that’s why when you know Christopher was like oh we should do this course and then oh we should go on this podcast I’m finally feeling you know I I see that these thoughts I have are not helpful and they’re not accurate um so I’m really trying not to listen to that voice but subconsciously it just kind of comes out so it here’s a question for you so you have this voice telling you this stuff and there’s some aspect of you that knows it’s not true that it’s you know what would be required for you to just like know it was just absolutely full of shit like that every part of your body like when you heard it you’re just like like you know it would be like a little kid a little kid is like no but the dinosaurs are still alive and you’d just be like ah yeah sorry yeah what would be required for you to see it that way to be honest I don’t know I guess therapy like would help I don’t mean I don’t mean to process I mean like a an instantaneous what would be the instantaneous recognition that would be required to just fully understand that that is not your voice it’s not a voice of that’s true it’s just it has nothing to do with you yeah I mean it’s so engraved in me yeah like just bleeding through my veins these thoughts of you know just be tough and handle everyone else’s emotions that I honestly don’t know what would give me that reaction yeah so I’m I’m curious about something Christopher just to in your own words if it’s true for you can you say something to say to you like um I never want you to deal with my emotions I only want you to be with me when you when you feel like you can baby I never want you to deal with my emotions for me I just want you to be with me when you feel like you can and I truly mean that and I I don’t need you to deal with my emotions and I love you more than anything right now when you’re emotional I love you so much baby you don’t have to be strong all the time that you let that in usually when this happens the person doesn’t let it in but I saw you fully let that in you had like one little flash maybe where you didn’t believe something is that is that accurate or did you is it was it all in how what happened no maybe but no I I think I took it in it was nice yeah okay but still somehow or another that sounds like is that how how how is that enough as a closed question but is that enough for you to be able to just not believe the voice in your head anymore at least with Christopher and no okay but it’s uh you know I I just have to actively work on it and so I’m gonna question that like you’ve had moments in your life where you and if I’m not saying it’s necessary or even needed like you’re great just the way you are and you’ve had moments in your life where you’ve just seen something and then it changes right you’ve had moments where you’re just like oh this is not how you cut an onion this is how you cut an onion or whatever and then you don’t have to and you’ve been cutting an onion the same way for 20 years but all of a sudden you’re like oh yeah that makes me cry this way of cutting an onion doesn’t make me cry and it’s changed right you don’t have to like go to therapy or anything what is it what is it that’s necessary for you to see that your emotions are welcome and you taking care of Christopher’s emotion is actually um it’s actually hurting him what would you need to see what would need to happen for you to just see that I wouldn’t well I don’t know I don’t know yeah yeah I knew and I was trying to guess already um I guess I would need to see some type of action or shift from Christopher yeah because it can feel like yeah of course your your emotions are welcome but at the end of the day I still am the one that needs to be strong in this relationship because he’s not um gotcha so wait hold on a second I’m just gonna I’m gonna now I’m gonna mess with you a little bit he’s the one that’s actually handling all of his emotions and having them and going through his trauma that’s some strength what what does he need what you’re the one that’s like no I mean not now you are but for years you’re like no I’m not gonna feel it which is yeah not handling it what how do you have this story that he needs you to be strong and how do you have the story that this is strength yeah the the strengthening is definitely just it goes back to me having to be like if Christopher’s really depressed yeah and really scared and really hopeless and maybe at the same time I feel the same yeah I don’t want us to just spiral into depression so then I’m like it’s okay let’s figure this out and it’s usually me that is that that takes that role that kind of nurturing role yeah because it feels like if we’re both if the two of us are like oh this is hopeless like we’re never gonna get it let’s let’s find out let’s find out let’s find out if that’s true that’s kind of crazy right so Christopher can you access that space of like that depression where you feel like this you’re just never getting out of this uh and and so I’m gonna let him speak it and I want you to just agree with him okay don’t try to don’t try to convince him out of his emotional state just actually like if anything just like fully you don’t have to enter into the space with him you can or you don’t have to but you’re not in any way gonna like fight that current you’re gonna go with that current okay let’s just see what happens yeah I’m never gonna get better I’m just always gonna release trauma and I’m just gonna eat shitty food because I’m afraid to eat what I want and be in pain and it’s never gonna get better yeah this sucks yeah it’s oh yeah it makes me so angry I hate it yeah I I go ahead sometimes I don’t I sometimes I don’t even want to live anymore and it’s scary it feels good what’s happening in you Sadie like I see there’s moments where I saw like this uh you were just with him and then there were some things that he said that seemed like it tightened your stomach a bit and you like you wanted to be there but there’s a little party that like took a step back but that’s how I see it what actually happened yeah yeah I mean I try to be there and then part of me is like yeah I mean it’s just that I agree with what he’s saying like it is it’s just shit and when he’s like oh I’m gonna be like this forever I’m like yeah you are so I just I guess pardon me gets really angry yeah yeah that was actually the cool thing so how often have you guys just gotten angry about this laughs never I think we maybe we’ve taken turns and it’s been directed at each other a little more than we want maybe yeah so what I noticed is I said angry and you both smiled and you both are like you literally laughed and what I also noticed is that when he wasn’t talked out of it that’s where he went he started saying it sucked and then he was like then he then he was like and I’m pissed at it and that’s actually where you kind of leaned in a little bit you were like ah like I saw that kind of leaning in then he went to the like I’m not even sure if I wanna like live with this and then so so I just noticed there’s like there’s some anger here and I’m wondering what would be a fun way to get angry at this like what would be the most enjoyable way for you two to get angry at like you’re both a totally smiling still what would be the way that it would feel great to go get angry at this I don’t know no throw stuff maybe the rage room I know you like that yeah like maybe throw things yeah and then in the in the middle of that I’ll probably hurt my shoulder and then we can be even more mad at that because that always happens right yeah yeah no but but there’s something really to this because I definitely um anger is the emotion that I’ve had the most issue expressing hmm well while expressing in a healthy way I’ve been angry internally through anxiety probably a repression but um and Sadie you’re better at I usually say there are two people people who get ulcers and people who give ulcers and we’re one each so you’re you’re pretty good baby at expressing anger at when you get angry and I’m good at detracting and internalizing it so it’s a good story and probably externally somewhat true however you need to stiff up your lip you need to handle this thing you need to figure this thing out how is that not anger itself um yeah that’s a question how is that if if at all how is that not angry anger at yourself yeah I mean that’s definitely anger yes at least on my end I don’t know about you Christopher but yeah yeah yeah and when we did the um the fifth Workshop in the connection course when you externalize your inner critic towards your partner yeah oh I was absolutely shocked by the ferocity with how you talk to yourself and how quickly you broke through the tears when you had to externalize it yeah and it just blew my heart open with empathy for you but also yeah that’s yeah yeah it was rough yeah so it sounds like maybe the anger release at this circumstance that you guys find yourself in together also might change some of the way that the anger gets directed instead of internally it can get it can move it can get moved yeah yeah I’m just curious I know we can’t do a full rage here and it is good with like a physical but I’m curious uh let’s start with You Chris or what if you were to just verbally unleash on the situation for and two minutes what would it sound like yeah now I feel the tension is there yeah and speak to it like you you just yell which is wonderful I loved it but like if you were to just be like you for ah yeah uh you for limiting my life and for yeah for causing me so much pain and for causing pain to the person who’s the closest to me and you for depriving the world of all the creative cool stuff I would do if I wasn’t ruminating about getting rid of you all the time uh yeah okay okay it’s true you are not good at this okay I mean I turned it into something yeah let’s see if Sadie can let’s see if Sadie can show us how this is done this is really it’s actually quite hard right yeah it is isn’t it yeah oh so I’m just expressing my anger about the situation you’re kind of like at it right so you’re you’re at the illness at the situation yeah you have ruined my life you have taken over every part of me I hate you you have crushed my spirit you have changed my go my goals my dreams are shattered and I hate you I feel like you stole my life and you’re just continually stealing it and you don’t care about anyone yeah cool I’m going to ask you to do I’m going to ask you to do a slight variation on that theme I want you to do it but this time you’re going to dominate it yeah your anger is there to dominate this after really like visualize visualize it yeah okay no breaks okay I have to really takes quite a lot of focus actually yeah you have ruined my life you’ve stolen everything I want you’ve ruined my future you’ve taken away traveling you’ve taken away cozy dinners you’ve taken away movie Nights events with my family a future of having a family a dream of being a mom career goals Financial stability everything I’ve ever wanted you have taken and destroyed because you are selfish and little moments little moments of joy you steal there there’s no happiness when you’re around you bold my life yeah so it’s great you’re you’re there’s more anger in there and less but I mean dominate like I’ll give you an example like you you will not take my life anymore you okay I will have all the joy that I want and you can’t know me I will dominate you I will dominate you you can do whatever the you got to do hurt his shoulder whatever it is I am not gonna have my taken away from me you I will own you you will be my little slavy by the time I’m done with you I mean dominate just see what it’s like okay you’re not gonna ruin any more of my life I am done taking your stuff I’m gonna do what I wanna do and when I wanna do it yeah you’re done ruining my future I’m going to have fun I’m gonna travel and you can’t do anything and you can stay in your dark wormy hole and die um how’d that feel I felt good like I kind of wanted to you know stab something maybe yeah a little violent yeah yeah really nice actually yeah and I just want to savor the you know anybody who’s listening both of these two things is really important to be able to fully Express what I would call like the victim anger like you’ve done this to me and you and then the dominant anger both of those two things are really important expressions if we want to get to Clarity right if if if the anger is kinked it’s very hard to get to Clarity but if we actually move that anger there’s a lot of clarity to be had and a lot of determination and so when it was really nice yeah and I could see the smile and yeah so that’s the thing is the the kind of the exhaustion to some degree is unexpressed anger that’s happening yeah and it’s okay to feel exhausted too so okay now that Sadie showed us how to do it Christopher I’m gonna get my popcorn hold on a second all right uh I this is the first time I’m nervous like actually feeling yeah okay yeah uh the domineering one dominating whatever feels right oh if you if you get one place we’ll do the other place whatever feels great yeah I’m so I’m so over dealing with you all the time I’m so I’m so over it man it’s always there you’re always there pulling me down and you’re making me feel like I’m weak but I’m not weak I’m just tired of feeling like this yeah so so that’s the sadness and that’s usually where your anger goes yep yeah yeah so so let’s do the dominant one I want you literally to feel like you are dominating it yeah I can literally feel the blockage like my I I I lost access to my emotions it felt like you you and I don’t I don’t care if the audio and this recording is bad when I do this I’m so over dealing with your stuff all the time off yeah yeah yeah yeah keep going you don’t control me you don’t tell me I’m too tired to make love to my wife you don’t tell me I don’t have a sex drive and don’t want to my beautiful hot ass wife every day if I want to you yeah keep going don’t stop come on yeah no I ain’t going to stop you can say whatever the on I’m gonna lean back in my chair and Savor this moment because I’m strong I don’t need your stuff you can’t tell me that I have no energy that I have no sex drive that I have no inspiration that I can’t do stuff that I can’t be productive that I can’t travel I can’t sleep whatever it is I’m done off okay yeah it does feel good but okay so the thing that feels so good is that we’re bonding over because this could easily be the thing where it’s directed misdirected at each other and then one person gets to express this but the other person just feels pushed down or uh yeah that’s really interesting wow yeah so you can be together in the sadness of it and you can be together in the anger of it and you’d be together in the victim of it nobody has to take care of each other here you can just be together oh that’s the relief I mean honestly though I it might be one of the best 40 minutes of my life so Sadie if you think that’s showing your emotion is ever something that makes me love you less it does not I love this and I love all of you I love all of you and I tell you that and I really wanted to get through to you I love all of you every part there’s nothing you can show me that I won’t be able to love any emotion anything you can say anything to me you can feel anything with me I love you for everything you’re my miracle I hope you know that yeah for those of you who can’t see Sadie’s face she clearly knows that yeah so what I’ll say just to wrap it up is the anytime so it’s totally okay to say hey I can’t do the emotional work right I don’t I can’t be without big emotion right now it’s totally okay to tell yourself you should be with it is is actually not being with it so yep either you’re capable in that moment or you’re not and that’s fine like whatever that is that’s totally fine and the more you can honor it the more you’ll be able to be there the way that you want to be there the other thing I’ll say is that what I see the thing last thing I saw that what Christopher said is he was talking about hey you could love any part of you and that’s because he’s learning to love every part of himself and so as as one of as any of us learn to love the anger and learn to love the sadness and learn to love the victim we learn to love it in everybody right now yeah yeah and for those of you who can’t see Sadie she smiled even bigger when she thought of Christopher loving himself yeah Joe Hudson huh thanks guys I appreciate you having the courage to come on here and make really good use of me thank you very much for that now this was so nice yeah thank you so much Joe yeah I can’t believe it I did this I’m so proud of you of us Kickback I cried in front of a stranger and let them record it like my nightmare I just want to say then there is something in you that pulled you towards doing this because when I brought it up you immediately said that would be fun and that’s not the little voice in you talking saying you shouldn’t feel this or that or you should hold Christopher’s emotion even if you don’t want to that’s not that voice yeah even right now you have every opportunity to say Joe I don’t want this out in the world yeah I’m so brave this was really nice I’m happy we did this I mean the course was also really nice but this was I mean it was fun to have you live facilitating something you know rather than the recording so this was really special yeah for me as well total pleasure okay I mean I I had no just the final words I I had to pinch myself several times uh that I get to do this with two of my favorite people in the whole world I’m so so grateful for this I love you guys you too Joe you handsome son of a get away from my wife okay pleasure guys bye wow that was beautiful thank you Joe thank you Sadie thank you Christopher I really loved feeling the difference in the different forms of anger that showed up and the freedom that was available within them and just seeing seeing the shifts that occurred even in real time with both Christopher and Sadie thank you both thank you Joe thank you everybody for listening if this helped you if you if you enjoyed this if you think there’s somebody out there that you know that might benefit from this and enjoy it please send it along and if you want to check out Chris’s podcast it is called do explain thank you and see you next time thanks for listening to the art of accomplishment if you enjoyed what you heard today please subscribe and rate US on your podcast app we’d love your feedback so feel free to send us questions or comments you can reach out to us join our newsletter or check out our courses at Art of accomplishment.com