Summary
Joe coaches a mental health professional with 25 years of experience who feels stuck and unable to move forward with her work despite knowing she’s ready. Through the session, Joe reveals that her stuckness stems from a deep need to be “the best” — a survival pattern rooted in childhood where perfection kept her safe. She uses somatic practices to suppress emotions rather than feel them, and avoids anger with sadness while avoiding sadness with somatic presencing.
The coaching reveals a layered defense system: perfectionism covering judgment, judgment covering grief, and underneath it all, repressed anger tied to relational trauma. When Joe invites her to make demands, she discovers that expressing needs — especially interpersonal ones — is far harder than expressing abstract confidence. The session culminates with Joe prescribing two practices: moving dominant (not victim) anger daily, and opening the heart to doubt rather than running from it. The difference between dissociative closure and embodied feeling is demonstrated in real time.
Brett and Joe break down the coaching techniques throughout, noting how the participant’s initial body language, question framing, and facial expressions reveal the core patterns before the content even begins.
Key Concepts
- Knowing your patterns doesn’t free you from them
- Tools can keep you stuck
- Anger unresisted becomes determination and clarity
- Welcoming doubt instead of running from it
- Somatic work can domesticate instead of liberate
- Perfectionism as a childhood safety strategy
- Unmet needs drive self-reliance
- Victim anger versus dominant anger
Key Quotes
“If I really understood it, it would have changed. So clearly I don’t.”
“All of your judgments are nonsense on some level. They’re either nonsense and they’re not true, or they’re nonsense in the fact that they’re true, but the consequences that you think they are are not true.”
“Anger unresisted is determination and clarity.”
“I have to be confident is running from the doubt. We all doubt. None of us move with 100% confidence. The question is how much can you welcome the doubt.”
“Somatic work is really beautiful work, but it can sometimes be used to domesticate yourself rather than to know yourself.”
“Criticizing a kid all the time is abuse. Expecting perfection out of a kid is abuse. And until you can see it and own it and feel it, it’s going to be a long haul to actually change that pattern.”
Transcript
I have to be confident is running from the doubt. We all doubt like we we none of us move with 100% confidence. The question is how much can you welcome the doubt is the difference. Not if you have it or not. So for anybody who’s watching this, please don’t take this as a how to coach video. Um, how to coach is really, really, really, really, really get to know yourself and learn a couple skills and then keep on getting to know yourself and really spend all your time in self-discovery or as much of your time as possible in self-discovery and then uh translate that into a couple of tools that that you have. But the but don’t take this if especially cuz we have a lot of coaches who watch as a a mechanism of oh this is how to coach or here’s a tool to use please take this far more as oh what can I learn about myself in this process what is it that I can see in myself what is it that I can see about humanity that’s that’s what we do this for it’s not to teach people how to coach why am I stuck um moving forward ward. Why am I not moving forward feeling the confidence um that I want to have after 25 years of being a mental health professional? Why am I not just running in and doing this next thing that I’m ready to do? Why am I stuck? Why am I Can we stop it? Yeah. Great. So, couple of things are happening right away in this coaching session. The first one that’s the biggest piece of information is she starts with her eyes closed and and checking in inwardly. So there’s a way in which being in herself and being with me is a difficult proposition. So that that’s the first piece of information that’s there. This may or may not be true, but it’s a piece of information. text is that the questions when asked what the questions are uh they’re all why questions which are typically more judgmental questions that are happening. And so that’s another thing that’s happening. And when she goes from internal to external, she goes, I’m sitting with, which is a little bit of a separation from herself, a little bit of a separation from me to, okay, here’s the question. So all of those things are happening in the first little bit. And typically, it’s the first little bit that will tell you a lot about what you’re going to be doing for the, you know, for the next couple minutes. Yeah. It’s fascinating how that also is the shape of the question as well, like how how do I bring what I want to into the world? How do I do the stuff that I know I’m ready for? It kind of pretends that there’s an internal sensing that she’s able to recognize like this is what I want to bring to the world, but then there’s a disconnect between that internal sense of it and then the connection with the world to bring it. Exactly. Which seems similar to the closing of the eyes. Exactly. and she has to talk herself into it after 25 years of right there’s there there’s not just how do I do it there’s a justification that I she should be able to and all of that is in there all right let’s move on um I’ve got so much readiness parts of me that are so ready I got it so what what’s what’s with the judgment yeah the judgment um it’s not going to be as good as I think I thought it was going to be uh I’m not as good as I thought I would be. Yeah. What’s the problem with that? Um, I was always the good one. Uh, I always figured out how to be the top of my class. Cool. Okay, great. Now we know what the real issue is. Yeah. So, she just went through a bunch of story there and now you said, “Now we know what the real issue is.” What did you see there? What’s What do you see is the real issue? To be honest, I can’t I have no idea what I’m about to say. Um, I must have seen it in the moment. The judgment immediately pulls out and she she acknowledges the judgment right away. I also see the smile on her face that’s happening right now when when it moves from I’m stuck to I’m judging myself and there’s a way in which she feels called out and she’s happy with that. So that’s another thing. And if you look at her face right now, she is so excited, right? So, whatever it is I’m about to say, which might be complete BS, we’ll we’ll find out in a second. There’s something happening in her right now that tells you that the stuckness that she feels is not exactly what she thinks it is because a person who feels really stuck wouldn’t have that facial expression. Yeah. And my my curiosity right now is regardless of what you’re about to say, in her response to you saying, “Oh, yeah, I see the problem.” What did she imagine the problem was? like what what is she currently laughing about? Yeah, that’s a great question. And how relevant is that to her journey? Yeah. Regardless of the next thing you say. Exactly. And and we’ll probably find out in a second. Maybe. Let’s see. Let’s see. Yeah. You’re not the top of your class in this. Like no, there’s no possible way. Whatever it is, the project you’re going to want to do next, you’re you won’t be the top. Sit. Sit. Yeah. Feel. Yeah. So, what I just noticed is that you went to a sematic experience to not feel rather than feel. I’m going to pause right there for those who are listening and not watching. What she just did there was she took that information in. There was an intensity to it, but she closed her eyes and then did some breathing. Like some breathing to settle her nervous system. Yeah. So the answer to the question is now we know what the real thing is. What I was doing there is it’s not particularly that I’m pointing to the real thing. There’s levels and levels of the real thing. But what I’m doing is I am turning the whole idea of the judgment around. So often times the way a person allows themselves to judge themselves is they say it’s going to come back. The other shoe is going to fall. I’m not going to be the best. And it’s true. But what does that have to do with anything? What does it have to do? Yes, the other something bad is going to happen. Something good is going to happen. Something um uh yes, you’re not going to be the best. It doesn’t mean that what you’re going to contribute isn’t amazing. So, the thing that I’m doing in that moment is really talking to the judgment. And and for anybody who’s listening, all of your judgments are like this. All of your judgments are nonsense on some level. They’re either nonsense and they’re not true or they’re nonsense in the fact that they’re true, but the consequences are are not true. The consequences that you think they are are not true. And so that’s what I’m doing right there is just flipping that that script around the judgment. Mhm. And then then you also said in in response to her taking that breath, right, you you pointed out you just went to a sematic experience in order to not feel. Can you say more on that? Well, it’s actually the same pattern repeating, which is, oh, I I need to perfect something. Like, there’s a way to do this. I’m going to be in control. Like, that sense of perfecting and controlling and being good enough. I’m going to do that right now with this breath in instead of just let the wildness of of life run through me for a minute. Right? So, if you think about what it is to express in the world, you’ll never be perfect. It’ll never be good enough. whatever that means it. But it does require some faith in the wildness of of life. It’s creativity. It’s messy. And and what I’m seeing is that the thing she’s talking about letting herself do out in the world, she’s not even letting herself do right here. And so she’s containing herself instead of fully feeling it. And sematic work is really beautiful work, but it can sometimes be used to domesticate yourself rather than to know yourself. Awesome. Let’s continue. Yep. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. I use my breath to self-regulate really quickly before I have to feel sometimes that Yeah. Yeah. Saw it. Yeah. Well trained. Yeah. So, we’re going to go back to You’re not going to be the best. Yeah. Period. Yeah. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. I’m not the best. And for those listening, she just visibly had some sadness show up. A little bit of wetness in her eyes. You’re not the best there. I don’t even know if somebody could claim best, but there’s there’s definitely people better than both of us in whatever it is that you’re going to do. Yes. Yeah. Survival pattern. Be the best. Be the safest. Um get out of your head. your head. you you I know you can see the patterns. You’re a mental health professional. You’ve seen the patterns for years, but that doesn’t isn’t helping you get out of it. Yeah. So, yeah. So, this is a really important thing. There’s this is for anybody who has you can describe what’s wrong with them. They have all the stories, but nothing is changing. This is a really typical thing that occurs is that you learn a new story, you learn rationale, you read a book, you get it, but it’s not actually changing. And one of the things that’s just a really good trick for that, if it’s happening inside of yourself, is to say, “No, if I really understood it, it would have changed. So clearly I don’t.” Rather than resting in the knowing of, “Oh, I know the story. I know that this precedes this, that this is all shame and blah blah blah blah, whatever the words are. If it hasn’t changed, you don’t know it. And it’s really like quite a beautiful hack to admit that to yourself. So anyways, yeah. And that also showed up in the very beginning where she opened with a question and she was like, I know that I’m ready to give this to the world. Right. And there’s a way that that is sort of that the it’s got the flavor of an affirmation to cover up the the lack of uh confidence in in that truth. So even even there there was a bit of a bit of self-denial in the the feeling of uncertainty. Yeah, that’s right. Of being ready. Yeah. Beautifully seen. Uh let’s move on. You’re so not the best that you can’t get out of this. You’re stuck. That’s how not the best you are. Yes, Joe. What the I am supposed to be the best I can get. I’m supposed to get out of this. I’m loving the joy on her face right now. Right. Yeah. So, I’m literally telling her all of her worst fears, what should be her worst fears. You’re not the best. You’re so not the best. You can’t even get unstuck. And nothing but joy is coming out. Like, oh, fine. Like it’s the relief of not having to be the best, not having to pretend you’re good enough. All this relief is coming. Okay. So awesome. Yeah. Right. Oh, all my tools with everything I know. And I’m still doing You’re actually using your tools to keep you stuck. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Master. Yeah. Cool. So feel that. Yeah. Now I see. Yeah. Feel that for a second. Yeah. It’s a beautiful moment. And if you’re listening, she’s starting to tear up and and she has this great fluidity of seeing the joy and the relief in it and then being able to feel the grief, which she really shows her capacity here. She has a lot of capacity for for doing the work. So, you have two survival techniques that are working here. Yeah. Yes. And I’m just tired of that. I am frustrated. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me all about it. Tell me all about it. Yes. I’m just so frustrated holding myself back. I’m only here on this planet for a short amount of time and I have some stuff to do and I’m tired. Okay, cool. So, what I’m seeing now is the the sadness actually comes out when you’re angry. So, you avoid anger with sadness and you avoid sadness with with sematic presencing. What the I really worked this. I know. Yeah. Uh yeah. Yeah. Interesting to see there that there’s there’s a part of her that feels it it seems to me it seems like there’s a part of her that feels kind of proud for the way it’s like at least the for the wiliness and the intelligence in the way that she’s stayed stuck. Like there’s almost a way that her system is kind of honoring like hey well you know what maybe I’ve been stuck. Maybe have felt stuck, but like look at how uh uh look at how elaborate this cage. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, there is that. It is very sweet. There isn’t a shame around it. There is a there’s like somewhat of a pride in it, which is really quite lovely. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s funny like Yeah. Anger is something that I um have been playing with a little more. Oh, I feel like on fire when I get angry, there’s like this fire in my belly. Yeah. And I just want to go and I want to go and then all of a sudden something comes in and that’s it just happened. Yeah. It literally just happened. You show up with a just a little bit of anger and then you like I’m angry and I want to do something. Yeah. feels. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, so two things are happening simultaneously. The first one is that you see on some level which is you had to be the best. Mhm. But the second one is that like you were trying to be the best to please somebody so that they would stop being mentally something abusive with you. Right. And so and that’s where your anger gets repressed. I’m just going to pause right there and ask a question for the audience. I’m imagining many people in the audience asking this like, “Wait a minute. How did you just make that leap to her childhood?” Right? And so I want to ask you that question. How did you make that leap to her childhood? And how how do you uh how do you navigate that when you’re bringing something up as like a empathy guess or a uh as a a prompt? Yeah. To link something back to their history. I could have it a little bit wrong here and there, but we learn like it’s the law of human nature that we learn what we need to do to get love and be safe. To get attention, to get love, to be safe. So, she learned that being the perfect best at kept her safe, which means she needed to be safe from something. It means that she this is the way she got love or at least was safe. And so if that’s true, there’s some level of abuse in that. If you’re looking at a kid deserves love and attention and to feel safe no matter what. And anything else is like some level of abuse. So I could have not used the word abuse partially. I’m looking at the response and you can see when if you’re looking at her face when I say it, she’s like trying to figure it out. Then she kind of sees it out of the corner of her eye. So, but if you use a word like approval, it doesn’t actually hit the system in in a sematic way. And because to just I remember for instance when I was in um in a a therapy session with Tara early on in our relationship and our therapist is like this is verbal abuse and both of our us were like no it’s not verbal abuse and it’s until we could admit to ourselves that it was abuse that that we could feel it own it change it And criticizing a kid all the time is abuse. Expecting perfection out of a kid is abuse. And until you can see it and own it and feel it, it’s going to be a long haul to actually change that pattern. Mhm. Yeah. And also in in recognizing abuse where abuse exists, you can apply the same thing. If you have a perfectionism mindset towards it, like if if this person’s parents watch this video or someone who’s a parent watched this video and sees a pattern that they see in their child for them to recognize, wait, what? That was abuse. They could be like, “Oh, I’m so bad. I’m so wrong.” Or they could be like, “Oh, yeah. There’s just all of this stuff that we’re swimming in in our through the generations, through our society, and I’ve clearly carried some of it, and there’s no shame in that.” That’s right. Opportunity for recognition. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. I don’t It’s odd. I don’t make abuser the abuser wrong. Like there’s no wrong doesn’t solve the problem. Acknowledgement of it solves the problem. Beautiful. Awesome. Let’s move on. Yeah. Cuz you either don’t want to be like that person or there’s some something going on there. So let me just actually hear your anger that is not a victim anger right so it’s not an anger of why can’t I just it’s like you that like aggressive like I am going to dominate I am not going to be dominated so can I yeah like just yes to me I’ve got something I have to say it’s important that I say this God I’m already feeling it though Joe it starts to go already. I feel it. I can’t pass that. Keep Keep coming. Don’t Don’t Don’t Don’t let it stop you for one minute. One minute. I can feel it’s dampering. But I’m so tired of it. I’m so angry. That’s the victim. Yep. Okay. Tired of it? No. you. I have something to say. I have something to say. I need to say it right now. You’re going to listen. You’re gonna back up. Uh something something somebody I’m pissed off at. There it is. Oh, and what just happened is as soon as you made a demand of somebody else Yeah. Yeah. Because this is a relational trauma. this. Yeah. It’s Yeah. So, do me a favor. Make in a in an aggressive tone, make 10 demands of me. It’s not personal. I’m not going to do them. Just make or make five demands of me. Uh gosh, see that’s hard. Um, yeah, she said oo, but she was also excited. Okay, Joe, give me an answer. Tell me what I need to do. Um, understand me. uh, oh, see, this is harder than I thought it was going to be. One thing that’s interesting here is watching the way that she enjoys it. When she gets into that, the moments of dominating anger, I see the same enjoyment on her face that she had when she talked about how she kept the cage around herself. Like, oh yeah, I’ve done all these things. I’ve done this and that. And like, yep, I did a really good job of keeping myself in this pattern. It’s like the same level of satisfaction she’s getting from both. It seems to me it’s fascinating. Yeah. Uh I can tell the world this, but like telling you something is much harder. like the symbol of I need something. I have needs. Oh, wow. I have needs, Joe. No, that’s that’s okay. I have needs and I’m not going to share them with you because I’ve got this. I’m on my island. It’s all right. You go do you and I’m going to figure this out on my own. Right. Which is why I almost didn’t raise my hand here, too, because I’m like, what am I doing being all visible? Yep. Yeah. You have needs. And I have needs, right? And you don’t share them. You don’t even share them with yourself. It wasn’t safe to have needs and to share needs. So I was self-reliant. I became a therapist. I was very good at being able to do that. So what’s the need? What’s the need that you have that’s moving this thing in you that wants to go out into the world that you have to express the belief? I I have a need to believe in myself. It It’s this it’s just like I know that I have a gift. Oh, that’s a story. You all you believe in yourself. Clearly. I believe in myself. That’s why I’m confused. I believe in myself. I know I’ve got this. Yeah. So, be in that belief for a minute. I know I’ve got this. No, that’s you trying to convince yourself. Okay. Yeah. Self-belief. I do believe in myself. Yeah, you clearly do. Yeah, I believe myself. You wouldn’t have called raised You wouldn’t have raised your hand. You wouldn’t have Yeah. And I asked this question because I believe in myself. So, hold on. You believe in yourself. And tell me what your need is. I believe in myself and I need to move forward with what I know. I need to go create what I am ready to create. Yeah. Yeah. and do it with confidence. Do it. What makes what makes you need it with confidence? Because it’s when I doubt myself that things go wrong. It’s it’s when I doubt myself that I lose momentum or I lose funding or I lose when you doubt yourself or when you doubt your anger. My anger. can I be angry? Yeah, some of it is anger. Uh that’s anger and in Tibetan world they say that anger unresisted is determination and clarity. Yeah. Okay. Determination that feels right. Fire belly out of your head. Yeah. Like and that’s only time I I I get free of this is when I am moving when I am doing dance if I’m lost. Yeah. I I will feel the spark and it gets it gets really hella strong. It’s there and I’m like wow like you should be doing this. And then something that’s really interesting here as well that I’m noticing is that when she’s in that clarity there’s just movement. And when when she goes into the doubt, there is the fear of not living up to potential, which then creates an urgency in her system. And she uses that urgency to create like a sense of confidence or drive, but it’s also kind of like putting the gas and the brakes at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of squealing of the tires that way. Yeah, it’s well seen. Okay. So, I just have I have a hack for you and then this will this will do it. So, I want you to go into the doubt for a moment. All the doubt. It’s not going to be the best. You’re going to it up. No one’s going to pay attention. No one’s going to listen. Yeah. You feel the doubt. Yeah. And open your heart to it. Love the doubt. And there’s some fear. Just keep loving the doubt. How close is that to the way you feel when you dance? Yeah. Much closer. Yeah. So, you’ve got two jobs. Move the anger every day. Move the anger. Not Not that kind of victimy anger, but that that dominant anger. Don’t do it at anybody. I mean, you can do it at somebody but just not with them in the room, right? You can like move that anger at people but just not with them in the room or whatever. And every time you go into your head spin of doubt, move into opening your heart to the doubt. Yeah. You can feel that really grounded. Yeah. Belly energy. Yeah. Yeah. There’s one thing that I’ll say. If you go back to the when I say the heart and you see her go into if you’re watching this video, you see her, it’s very similar to what happened at the beginning. So, at the very beginning, she closes her eyes. She’s disconnected from me. And in this particular case, you you can see that it’s overwhelming her a little bit. You can see that it’s fully embodied. It’s not an escape. It’s an embodiment. And so I just want to because I’m sure people um there are people who don’t understand probably when they’re doing which one. And so here’s a great example of it. If you look at her, let’s watch the tape for a second. I want to show you where you can see it. I want you to go into the doubt for a moment. All the doubt. Yeah. You feel the doubt? Yep. And open your heart to it. When you say doubt, she’s looking down. You can see the shame. You can see her tucking her belly a little bit. And now you’re like, “Oh, the heart.” Now, watch what happens right here to her face and there’s some fear. So it’s like that moment of like she’s it literally feels like the emotion is moving her physically in the body. So it’s not about how do I suppress this emotion. It’s actually alive in her. You can see her her head kind of move like a wave. And that’s it’s an interesting thing to know the difference between oh I’m closing my eyes and I’m dissociative or I’m I’m separating myself from myself or I’m closing my eyes and I’m I’m stepping more deeply into myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s amazing how subtle that difference is from the from the very beginning of the session, doubt creeps up and she did some breathing to suppress or to to get to move away from that experience. Yeah. End of the session, some doubt shows up. She opens her heart to it and her system moves. Yeah. And visibly on the screen it takes sort of a trained eye to even recognize the difference. But if you imagine over the course of a lifetime built up of many weeks, months, days where little moments like that occur and you open your heart to that doubt rather than sematically move away from it and what happens in your life. Yeah. And the other thing to say is if you notice right at the beginning she’s 25 years of therapy like that’s running from the doubt like there’s there’s a perpetual if you look through the tape there’s this perpetual running from the doubt and this is her first time stepping fully into the doubt. I have to be confident is running from the doubt. We all doubt like we we none of us move with 100% confidence. The question is how how well that’s not even right the way I was going to say how well can you be with the doubt but I would say how much can you welcome the doubt is the difference not if you have it or not. Yeah. It’s like how much how much of the struggle that we associate with doubt in our lives is actually the reaction to the doubt. Yeah. That’s right. Our doubt comes up and we go into a trigger response and try to manage. That’s everything too, right? How much of the issue isn’t the issue, it’s how we react to the issue. Yeah, exactly. Or react to the reaction. Also, just for those listening, maybe put a couple more signposts around the anger. You mentioned like Yeah. You basically like prescribed her move some anger every day. Yes. And we’ve done a couple episodes on anger that go into that in a little bit more detail, but just for those who might have this be the one episode that they listen to of our entire podcast. Yeah. Yeah. What does that mean when you invite her to move anger every day? You can move it at people but not with them in the room. What does exactly that? Yeah. Well, so if you’re listening to this, go listen to the anger podcast before doing it. It’s important because it can bring up a lot of uh emotions and nervous system responses. What it means is that typically the way we’re taught is that you can either contain your anger or you can get angry at somebody. You’re either yelling at your mom or you’re trying not to yell at your mom. So that and there’s this third option that for whatever reason very few people do, which is go move your anger. Just don’t do it with your mom around. Let it move. Get that happening and then come back and and be with your mom. And if you are feeling stuck in particular this this particular case it’s one of the thing one of the big signs symptoms of repressed anger. So then you start moving your anger and you move it on a regular basis and then the the anger over time becomes a little less personal. It becomes more like you’re going to the bathroom and less like you believe the story. It’s just an energy that needs to move. And when you do it, one thing to know is that it’ll increase for a while. The anger all of a sudden you’ll feel more and more anger and then it’ll dissipate over time. And the important thing is to not judge or have shame over anger. We all have it. And it’s to let it move so that it turns into the anger that is decisive, that is clear, that is the anger that Gandhi had or the anger that Martin Luther King had, the anger that’s full of love. Beautiful. Thank you, Joe. And I also want to thank our participant for being a being a willing guest on the public Q&A and onto the podcast. Awesome. Thanks, Brett. Yeah, and thanks everybody for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. We also love it if you like, rate, give us five stars or whatever many stars on any of the podcast platforms or follow us on YouTube at Art of Accomplishment. You can also follow us on X at Art of AMP at FU_J Hudson and Eric Kistler. The Art of Accomplishment was produced and hosted by myself, Brett Kistler, and Joe Hudson. Mi Kelly is our production coordinator, and this episode was edited by On Replay.