Summary
In this conversation, Joe Hudson lays out a concrete method for changing behavior once you’ve already seen a pattern but your life hasn’t changed. He calls it the four A’s: announce, apologize, ask, and act. The method is for a specific situation — the moment of “Oh, I get it now” — and is most powerful for relational and interpersonal patterns rather than solo bad habits.
Joe illustrates with a real example from his own company. Returning from his August break, he recognized he’d been making excuses for people and doing parts of their jobs, which disempowered everyone. So he announced it to the entire company, apologized in an upright (non-shaming) way, asked everyone to remind him when they saw the old pattern and to have patience with the mess, and then immediately took five concrete contrary actions — clean emails to each person where the pattern had been showing up — all within the same day.
He walks through each step’s nuances. Announce as widely as possible: it makes failure visible (which surfaces real emotion) and shifts the identity that others hold in place for you. Apologize upright, not from shame, because a shame-laden apology loops you right back into the old “I’m a screw-up” identity. Ask for help specifically — describe exactly how you want to be reminded — which creates loving accountability, breaks the isolation that keeps patterns alive, and invites the people around you into a different action too. Act by finding five places the pattern shows up and taking clean contrary actions quickly, starting with the easiest, doing reps.
The throughline Joe keeps returning to: you can do the four A’s “rote” and they work okay, but they work powerfully when you feel everything that comes up while doing them — the grief, the fear of rejection, the decades of unfelt shame holding the habit in place. Crucially, the method only works after a genuine recognition, not from a “should.” Forcing yourself through it as a boot camp, or applying it to morality you’ve adopted but not actually seen, makes it messy and ineffective. And it doesn’t work for solo bad habits like smoking or exercise, which require stopping or repeating a behavior rather than taking immediate one-time relational actions. Done well, the four A’s are a remarkably efficient use of willpower and a “joyful,” if turbulent, way to front-load the emotional work that real change requires.
Key Concepts
- The four A’s change behavior after you’ve seen a pattern: announce, apologize, ask, act
- Announcing widely surfaces emotion and shifts the identity others hold for you
- An upright apology empowers; a shame-laden one loops you back into the pattern
- Asking for specific help is accountability with love, not surveillance
- Take five clean contrary actions immediately, as reps
- The method works powerfully only when you feel the emotions while doing it
- The four A’s only work after a genuine recognition, not from a should
Key Quotes
“A lot of times people will see a pattern. Maybe they’ve seen it for years… And their life hasn’t changed. They just see the thing.”
“The first thing is to announce it. Second thing is to apologize. The third thing is to ask for help, and then the fourth thing is to act immediately.”
“You can just do the stuff rote and it works pretty well. Works a lot better if you do the stuff and feel everything that comes up while you’re doing the stuff.”
“Part of my identity is held in place by who I think I am, but part of my identity is held in place by who you think I am.”
“It’s far better to apologize without any shame… There’s actually quite a really good feeling to apologize in an upright way.”
“You’re asking for accountability… but accountability like with love.”
“It’s simple, but it’s not easy. But the reality is this methodology makes all of that easier than doing it otherwise.”
Transcript
You taught me a really cool way to help my clients change their behavior by taking specific actions in their lives. It’s a simple method, just requires you to feel a whole bunch of stuff on the on the way. You have these patterns because you’re trying to avoid an emotional experience, and you have to feel all that experience to do it cleanly. I was making excuses for people, which was deeply disempowering. And so the first thing that I did, I announced the entire company I’d been doing this. I’m sorry for this, and it’s not okay. Yep. And there’s a really cool technique to it that I really want to talk about and share with our audience today. Yeah, that’d be great. I think it’s such a good thing because it’s so easy to use, and it’s so efficient, and it’s so like effective. Right? It’s like an effective, efficient way to change behavior. A particular very specific kind of behavior, but yeah, but great way to change it. Especially if you’ve had that realization. If you’ve had that moment of “Oh, I get it. Now what do I do?” This is like a great answer to that question. >> Yeah, yeah, this is perfect for once somebody has seen through a pattern because one thing we notice that a lot of times people will see a pattern. Maybe they’ve seen it for years. >> Yes. And their life hasn’t changed. They just see the thing. Correct. >> And we’ve talked a lot about feeling the unfelt emotions behind a pattern, and we’ll talk for sure some about that here. But I want to really focus on specific action. Yep. And how to structure changing your behavior through action. So let’s let’s get started. How how does this work? I call it the four A’s, and the first thing is to announce it. Second thing is to apologize. The third thing is to ask for help, and then the fourth thing is to act immediately. And and there’s a lot of nuances to each of those things, but the four A’s is how I think about it cuz it’s easy to remember. And when you have that moment of oh, I get it now, if you do the four A’s right afterwards, it definitely is super effective of changing that behavior and then therefore changing the pattern in your life. What’s a maybe just a brief example of what this might be? So, this summer you got to see me do this in action. So, I came back from my August break and during the August break, I recognized that I was making excuses for people and doing their job a little bit. And it wasn’t heavy, but it was like I was not expecting them to do the work job that they were supposed to do because I was getting on the too helpful side of the scale and trying to work with them to figure out which was deeply disempowering. So, instead of saying, “Hey, this is what you said to do. Will you do it? If you’re not going to do it, tell me why.” I was making excuses and I was helping out and how can I clear the way for you, etc. Which disempowered me, disempowered them, wasn’t good for any of us. And so, the first thing that I did was that I announced to the entire company I’d been doing this. I’ve been doing it. It wasn’t fair. It was disempowering to them. It was disempowering to me. And then the second thing that I did was apologize to everybody. I’m sorry for this. Like, I can understand if I was in your shoes how this would suck and it’s not okay. And so, then there was the apology of it. And then the next thing that I did was I asked the company for help. Hey, I’m going to be doing I’m going to be changing this behavior. If you see me do it, tell me. If you see me do the old pattern, let me know. If you If you feel like it’s at odds in any way, let me know. And then also, just That wasn’t the only ask. The other ask was this is probably going be messy. This is one of the times that like I’m I’m changing something. I’m probably not going to do it really well. Maybe I’m going to ask too harshly for a while. I don’t know what’s going to happen, but please have some patience with me. So I’m I’m I’m announcing the situation, but then I’m asking for help after the apology. And then immediately I take and I I think it’s really important to take five actions. So before I even did any of the announcing and and the apologizing, I thought about like what are five things that I can do that are counteractions to the to the behavior that is the problem behavior. So in this particular case there was the problem behavior is where I was making excuses for people. Um I was I was taking responsibility for their work instead of letting them take responsibility for their work. And so I just lined up five things that I taken responsibility for and wrote single emails to each person that that was happening with and I said, “Hey, this is this is what I you I asked this is what happened. This is what I need. Can you explain to me what’s not happening? Can you tell me when it’s going to get done? How do we make sure this doesn’t happen in the future?” Just bam, just really clean as clean as I can make it at the time to each one of them. And that’s the act immediately. So I did all of those emails basically within the same day. And that’s the easy part. Yeah, that’s the hard part. It’s what you have to do to get there and that typically is where a lot of the growth happens and what changes the the behavior. But there’s nuances to each one of the steps. So let’s let’s start at the top. >> Yeah. Announce. Announce. So the most effective way is to announce as widely as possible to as much of the many people in your life as possible. So this is often going to up like maybe a feeling of like reputational damage. Like oh, the people are going to think less of me or oh, I’m I’m making sure that I I’m doing something and if I fail, everybody’s going to see that I fail. If I announce everybody I’m changing and then I don’t change. Right? And you have to have all those like significant emotions that are happening. And so, the wider you can announce it, the more effective it is that you’re going to change. Right? Because you have more people who know about what’s happened for you and it also shifts your identity. Cuz part of my identity is held in place by who I think I am, but part of my identity is held in place by who you think I am. And so, if I’m used to having an interaction with you where you’re like, oh, you’re Joe. You’re going to take care of me instead of hold me accountable, then that’s how you’re going to treat me. But if I’ve announced to you, I’m not doing that anymore, the next time it happens, you’re going to be like, okay, well, what’s going to go down here? So, you’re not holding me into an identity because I’ve announced it widely. But to announce it widely and cleanly, I have to feel through the grief of maybe that I’m going to mess it up, maybe that I’m going to be seen as bad, maybe I’m not going to be consistent. I have to like feel through all of that stuff. Which usually you don’t do until you’ve lived through it. But if you feel through it first, then often you’re not going to be living through it. >> Yeah. There’s something really cool about that, too, where a lot of those feelings are actually feelings you’ve already been having. >> Correct. >> Like the fear of reputational loss is probably one of the things that’s been driving the pattern. Correct. Right. So, what >> you’re really just feeling the thing that’s already there. >> That’s right. That’s right. And that’s why each one of these steps the kind of the greater arc is that you have to feel like you can just do the stuff rote and it works pretty well. Works a lot better if you do the stuff and feel everything that comes up while you’re doing the stuff. That’s when it really works super well to change the behavior. And if you do it rote while actively avoiding all those feelings, it can go sideways and we’ll we’ll talk about that later. >> very much right. Correct. Yeah. But let’s still continue going through the list. We just talked about announce. So, the trick with announcing is announcing widely. Widely. There’s a way that you’re really putting yourself triangulating yourself in the uh in the crucible here. That’s right. Yeah, so like when I did I did with the whole company. Yeah. I was doing this in the company, every single person in the company. And then I asked every single person in the company to acknowledge that I’d written it. Yeah. >> Just send me a happy face or a thumbs up or whatever. I like very much wanted to make sure everybody saw it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, after announce After announce, then there’s apology. Basically, you have to apologize. Now, you don’t have to, but it’s far better to apologize without any shame. So, it’s just, “Hey, I was doing this. This is not how I want to be anymore.” If you’re apologizing it with shame, then you’re not feeling everything that comes along with Yeah. >> having that apology. There’s it’s actually quite a a a really good feeling to apologize in an upright way. You’re just saying, “Oh, this isn’t how I want to be.” It’s very empowering. There’s a feeling of relief >> There’s a feeling of relief in it. But if you’re in shame, then it’s like, “Oh, I’m bad. There’s something wrong with me.” And you’re still in the identity of that you’re screw that you’re a screw up. >> Yeah, and that’s just looping you right back into the old behavior. >> Exactly. So, the critical piece there, upright apology. Just very empowered, this isn’t how I want to be. And I And I apologize for all the the pain that it caused you. And that is incredibly useful for changing behavior. Yeah. It’s not just, “I’m sorry.” But I I I I acknowledge that this was shitty for you. Yeah. >> And that’s not I want to be and I don’t want you to be in that shitty position. Like acknowledging that is really useful because it it it kind of allows you to have the empathy of what it’s been like on the other side of your behavior. Right. So, you’ve got announce widely, apologize upright. >> Upright. >> Upright apology. >> Yes. And then ask. Ask. Tell me more about the ask. >> Yeah. So, the ask is good for a couple of way reasons. The first one is it’s like you’re basically asking for accountability in one way or another. So, which is not accountability the way most people think about accountability, but accountability like with love, right? So, you’re asking for people to remind you, to see you, to show you, to help you. And so, that’s a really important thing because we learn better when we have reflection when like when we have a teacher and a student when we have a book and then we think about the book and write a paper, we learn better if we’re in that interaction. Yeah. Instead of I’m all by myself trying to remember to do this thing that maybe I’ll forget because I’m in the habit, blah blah blah. No, I actually have somebody there who’s like, “Oh, hey Joe, you’re doing that thing.” And and that is that reflection is super useful. And is also useful in the fact that if I get defensive on that reflection, it’s a world of beautiful stuff for me to sort through to undo the pattern. Right. Right? If I can’t just be “Oh, you’re right. I’m totally taking care of you in this moment. I apologize for that.” Or oh, you’re you’re right. I’m taking care of you for in this moment. That’s not what I want to do. Actually, what I want is this. If I can’t do that, if I’m like, “Boy, why are you reminding me?” That means I still have a bunch of shame to work through Right. for the thing. So, and it can immediately point that to me. Yeah. And that moment shifts, too, because first the person has been invited to remind you and secondly you have asked for it so that changes your own psychology. So when somebody does remind you you’re receptive to it. There’s a way that simply by having asked you will be more receptive. I have done it. So I have done it in a way where it’s like all of a sudden 10 people are reminding me on the same day and that can be frustrating. It’s like I’m trying I’m trying. You know, but but typically it works really really well and so and it usually you don’t get defensive, but if you do you can learn something about it or you can see how deep the pattern is. I I did this once in a offsite. There was something where I said you guys and somebody was really offended by you guys instead of saying folks because guys was gender specific. Yeah. And you can think whatever you want to think of that, but for me it was really important that the teaching wasn’t being disregarded because I was saying guys, right? So I literally gave the person a tennis ball and I was just say just throw it at me every time I say guys so that I remember. It’s not about hurting me, but just throw it at me so that I can remember because I’m just I was just so not not in my consciousness at all. >> Yeah. And I definitely that like I think after the 10th tennis ball I was a little I was a little frustrated, but >> That’s a fun one cuz then now you’re sort of in a game with them. It’s not >> Exactly. And I can see there’s not shame in that too. If there was shame in it you wouldn’t be like yeah throw a tennis ball at me. There’s like hey yeah This is personal. >> like I haven’t been tracking or aware of literally everything and there are certain things that I could be more aware of. And I want my message to be heard and if this helps you hear it then I want to do that. >> Exactly. >> So let’s play a game. Remind me. >> Yeah, exactly. So you’re asking for help. It It creates a reminder. The other thing is it reminds you that you’re not alone in it. Mhm. And often times these patterns hold in place because we we think we’re alone in it. Mhm. And so, if you can see, oh, there’s other people who want to support you. And then like when people are like, yeah, I want to support you, Joe. So, like for me there is like a little bit of guilt about, oh, I’m asking you to like get the job done. Like am I asking too much? There was like that like bit of guilt. And to hear everybody go, yeah, I’ll I’ll support you in this process. Yeah. It’s like, oh, that immediately allows me to see that my reality might be different than everybody else’s. And people do want to help me and they see the same thing. And so, I’m not alone in it, which is really really useful for changing behavior. >> Yeah, it breaks up that presumption of judgment. >> Yeah. Yeah, and shame. Yeah. >> Yeah. And being specific, really important for the asks. It’s not you know, it it like often times I’ll even say, here’s how I want to be reminded. Yeah. This is like the great way to be reminded. And this is a great story about this was when we were doing groundbreakers in the early days, I would get into this rush. And I wanted to be reminded of the rush. And we sat down and because it the rushing wasn’t helping anybody. It wasn’t helping the participants. It wasn’t helping us. And we chatted around like, what is the antidote? What’s the the specific antidote to the to the rush? And Janine was like proposed, I see how much you care. And immediately anytime anybody said that, my whole system would just, okay, I’m good. Because for me rushing was, I was told as a kid I didn’t care if I was late or if I wasn’t on time, right? That you don’t love me if you’re not on time kind of thing. And so, it just like immediately dissolved that. The more specific you can be like in these moments at these times this is the kind of thing to say that supports me. It makes you really understand the pattern and what it is that that neutralizes that pattern and just that work just the work of knowing it and then getting it is unbelievably useful. Yeah, there’s another subtle thing that happens there is in inviting people to interact with you in a certain way you’re inviting them to change their behavior by taking a different action. If the action might have been hold back, resent you and then blow up at you later or something. >> Right, right. The invited action is tell me, throw a tennis ball at me Right. >> whatever and by inviting them into a different action it actually changes their side of the dynamic with you. It doesn’t change it. It invites them into an action that can result in a better dynamic. >> Yes. As you are changing and working on your side. Right. It is supporting you. Yeah, it empowers everybody else around your pattern. So they don’t have to feel a victim to it. That’s right. Yeah, this well seen. I hadn’t really put it together like that, but yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay, so then the final A act. Yeah, act. So act the most important thing about acting is you just have to find five ways to do it and you have to do it as soon as possible. That’s my experience and five ways is important because one of them might go wrong. you know, there is no perfect way of acting that’s going to make everybody happy with you all the time. So typically what people will do is they’ll take like one contrary action. They’ll be very scared about it. They’ll take that action and they’ll do it in the exact place where they are the least likely to get the positive result, you know. So okay, I’m going to be honest with somebody so it’s going to be my mom, you know, and it’s going to be around the thing >> And I’m going to tell her she looks fat in those jeans. >> Yeah, exactly, Exactly. >> Exactly. So, so what I notice is if you find five different ways, five different scenarios, um where you can where you can do it, right? If you can say, “Okay, in my example, there was uh a picture of me that I had asked to have changed for like 3 months.” Okay, that’s one of them. There’s a backlog of podcasts that hadn’t happened. That’s another one. And I just like went through and I like looked I had to search for uh different places where I could basically say, “Hey, this was the expectation. What actually happened?” so, so that’s really important. And to really s- a lot of times what your brain will do is like, “I can only find one or two.” And it’s like, “There’s no way.” If you’re like dealing with a pattern, you’re going to see it everywhere. And part of finding the five is you have to actually dig through your through the gunk to actually see the pattern more clearly. So, that’s incredibly useful. Taking contrary behavior on five of them quickly is like doing reps. It’s like, “Oh, I know how to do this now. I I I can do it. You can start with the easiest ones because those are the ones you’re going to be most clean on typically. Mhm. And but, you know, I’m going to share my truth and the truth is like, “I don’t want to eat dinner tonight at Chinese at the Chinese restaurant.” An easy one. That’s a great place to start. But typically, I like to do them all as simultaneously as possible. So, I can actually see what’s the response. Oh, four out of five worked out really well. Or none of these worked out. What is it that I have to do differently? Which has never happened, but I assume it could. So, it’s a very much about doing lots of reps so you get the practice. and having different like difficulty levels of difficulty so you can feel what it’s like and and see how to do it as cleanly as possible. The The other thing that I think is really critical in this is again, there is a lot of emotion that goes through doing that stuff cuz you are now facing the fear. You’re facing the thing like, “Oh, this is where I’m going to potentially get rejected. Oh, this is where I’m going to potentially get attacked. Oh, this because you have these patterns because experience. And every time you take the contrary action, you have to live through the fantasy that that negative emotional experience is going to happen and maybe even feel the negative experience once or twice. And when you feel the negative experience, it teaches you how to do a cleaner so that if you do a cleaner then it’s less likely that you get the negative experience. And when I say cleaner, what I mean is I’m not saying it in such a way that I’m looking for an attack or trying to avoid an attack or making a bunch of excuses or hedging a bunch or being really strong and and and hardcore about it so that like nobody’s going to like hurt me in it. Just Oh, I’m open-heartedly saying the thing that is the contrary action. And getting those reps in super critical. And to do that, you got to feel all the crap of Oh, I might get hurt. I might get attacked. I might lose somebody that I love. I might I might I might. And you have to feel all that experience to be able to get to the to do it cleanly. So, maybe the recognition like, “Oh, I don’t want to be Mom’s source of validation, but I do want to be with her in appreciation and Right. like So So the actions because you’ve you’ve asked for grace in in the ask you’re going to have some messiness in your actions. For sure. And there’s a window of tolerance within which you’re going to be able to be with the emotions that come up around that. You’re like, “Oh, you know what? I’ve maybe overcorrected and this isn’t the way I want to be either. The way I really want to be is this.” >> Yeah. Yeah, typically then you just have to take the next five actions and you’re just like getting cleaner and cleaner at it. They’re never going to be perfectly clean, but the cleaner they’re going to be. And so the real key there is to like imagine doing it, feel all the Yeah. Grieve everything you got to grieve. Imagine doing the second one, feel everything you’ve got to feel, grieve everything you’ve got to grieve, and and then do them. Yeah. So let’s drill into exactly how this works a little bit more from the top again. Yeah. Cuz there’s a there’s the structure of the process of taking the actions and then there’s this under the secondary layer of all the emotions that are happening. And that seems to be where the real change is happening. Yes. And so the more you front-load those emotions by announcing widely and specifically and asking Yes. >> and apologizing, that whole that whole part makes the acting easier, makes the actions you’re going to take more expected >> Yes. >> and more well received >> Yes. and makes it more likely that those actions the the having to feel the in-the-moment heat Yes. >> of taking a different action, you’ve already done a bunch of preparatory emotional work by having really found the five places that this happens in your life instead of just the one or two. Seeing that helps you see the pattern more deeply. Announcing the pattern broadly helps you feel all of avoided emotions Yeah. that you’ve been pushing away for decades. Yeah. And having felt that, apologizing, and getting underneath and feeling what had been behind shame all this time, holding those habits in place. Yes. And then asking, and changing the social field around you. >> Through that dynamic. That’s a lot of work before you get to the action. The action then is just pretty simple. >> Yeah. Yeah. You felt Yeah, if you’ve done it If you’ve done it fully open-heartedly, you’ll feel so much stuff through that process. Yeah. Yeah. Super effective. So, where Where can this go wrong? What would make this not work? Yeah. There’s Well, there’s places where it doesn’t work, and there’s places that it that it can go wrong. So, let’s do the first one, your question, then think about the second. But, the the first one is if you are forcing your yourself through it. Mhm. So, it does not work as well if you are if you do the following. I don’t like the fact that I do X, Y, and Z. I need it to change. I’m going to take these actions. Mhm. Where it works really well is, “Oh, I I I that I see that was completely unnecessary.” That’s not how I want to be. Then it works really well. Mhm. So, if you’re using this as a form of, you know, uh boot camp, “I’m going to force myself to do it, you know, that then it doesn’t work. Because what you’re doing is you’re you’re pushing down all your emotions. You’re not feeling everything. You’re just telling yourself the way that you should be. Yeah. And I want to double click on that because that is the way a lot of people are taught to change their behavior. Correct. >> Is identify something they’re doing wrong. Yes. Beat themselves up about it. Rub their nose in it. Yeah. And enforce action by possibly bringing in accountability buddy, something that feels like it’s really helpful, maybe hire a coach, but maybe some dummy style coach. >> Yeah. And like create a system to bully oneself into changing behavior, which just doesn’t create lasting change. Correct, yeah. So, it works really well when you have a recognition, when you have the realization, when you get off a coaching call with me and you say, “Oh, wow, I’ve been doing that thing. I don’t need to do that thing anymore.” That’s the best time to implement this. Just bam, I see it. I’m immediately going to take the four A’s. I’m going to I’m going to do the four A’s right away. That’s when it’s the most useful. Mhm. If it is something that you think some way you think you should be and you haven’t had the recognition of oh, that’s not the way I want to be. You’re still in the should of it, then it’s much less likely to work and it’s going to be messy towards you and towards everybody else. Right. An example might be deciding that I want to be 100% honest like Jim Carrey in Liar Liar. Yeah. And that’s just maybe that’s a morality that I’ve adopted, but I haven’t seen a pattern, I haven’t seen the way that it’s affecting my life deeply. I haven’t felt those emotions, so I’m just like, “Okay, I’m going to say exactly what’s on my mind.” And it turns out that I just say a bunch of really mean and abusive to people that Right. >> isn’t really the way I want to be with them either, but I’m pushing myself into a certain way of being. Yeah, the other way I would think about this is like commitment commitment. There’s a lot of folks who are like, “I should be I should allow myself or I should be more committed. I shouldn’t be as commitment phobic.” Right? And so, I should commit to stuff. Right. Yeah, but that’s not a realization. That’s a should. There’s not oh, oh, wow, I’m not committing to stuff because I’m scared of getting rejected. Oh, and I’m scared of getting rejected because I’ve been rejecting myself. I’ve been rejecting what I actually want. Okay. That’s the moment to do it. If you actually have the recognition that’s yours, I’m not If someone is scared of commitment, there might be many reasons for it. But that would be That would You need the recognition to go there. Yeah, and the what’s behind the pattern for you? For you. That’s it. >> Not for someone else or Right. Yep. So, what are what are kinds of behavior that this wouldn’t work for? This doesn’t work with bad habits. Like in terms of like smoking, biting nails, or something. >> not exercising, because often times bad habits are changing is stopping a behavior. It’s not starting a new behavior. Let’s even say like, I want to exercise every day. How do I take five actions today exercising every day? Right? So, you’re all of a sudden it’s not immediately getting done. It’s you have to do it daily, which requires some disciplinary requires you to remember you know, the some of parts of it can work. You can say to somebody, “Hey, do you want to exercise with me every Tuesday?” And “Hey, can you exercise with me every Wednesday?” And get help. Like, great. There’s things that work. But that methodology generally doesn’t work because it’s like, “Well, what are you apologizing to?” So, habits, they don’t bad habits, what we call bad habits, they’re not It’s not a very effective way to change. This is far more of an uh uh how to change your behavior inside of a community or marriage or with raising kids and stuff like that. >> Yeah, it also seems like this is an interpersonal domain. That’s right. If you’re just apologizing to yourself for your own habits around health. >> Useful. Useful, but it’s not going to be >> as this. Yeah, the I see a couple of keys to the effectiveness of this uh of this method is that one it is very relational. So you’re working with relational dynamics. So the moment you have the recognition this process deepens the recognition and then brings it into the relational field around you such that you can’t help but change because it’s already out there. Yeah. And there’s also >> are changing around you. And people are changing around you. And secondly it is a really efficient use of willpower and dopamine because That’s true. Once you have done the thing where you announce you have announced. Once you have apologized you have apologized apologized. Once you’ve asked for how you want to be interacted with you’ve done that and then once you have identified five ways to act you do them one time each >> Yeah. and chances are the behavior has shifted deeply. Yeah, sorry. >> Which isn’t the same as every time I’m thinking of putting a cigarette to my mouth I’m going to tell myself not to try to do something else which is a different thing that different techniques can be. >> and all that stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah, so that it’s it’s really efficient use of decision energy so that you don’t go into fatigue. >> Yeah. That’s it. >> Yeah, that’s it’s a it’s a simple method 4 A’s easy to remember just requires you to feel a whole bunch of stuff on the on the way which is which is a joy really but it’s it can be turbulent especially your first couple times doing it. Picture in a milk box that says the 4 A’s and you’re like oh this is easy and then someone flips it over in the back and they see the ingredients and uh decades of unfelt shame and inadequacy and fear of rejection and all the love that I was pushing away and the grief of But the the the cool thing is it’s like to yes, that’s difficult or not difficult but it you know it’s not easy. It’s simple, but it’s not easy. But the reality is this methodology makes all of that easier than doing it otherwise. You’re going to have to do it otherwise, right? If you’re changing your behavior, feeling all that pain, feeling all that shame, feeling the grief, going through the fear that people are going to reject you, or whatever it is, is all going to have to happen. Yeah. It is harder to just wake up and go, “Okay, today I’m going to journal on this and feel this thing, and then tomorrow I’m going to journal on this and feel this thing.” than it is to just take the 4 A’s and feel it all while you’re doing it. >> Just look at the entire ingredient list and be like, “Oh, this is what’s been poisoning me for years.” >> exactly. Put that down now. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, it makes it easier to go through everything. Awesome. Thank you, Joe. Yeah.