Summary
What begins as a podcast conversation with Kelly Leveque turns into a live coaching session about the anxiety running her life. Kelly has a wonderful marriage, three healthy kids, and a career touching hundreds of thousands of people—and she’s braced for the other shoe to drop. Joe reframes the central knot: her anxiety is repressed excitement. The two are neurologically wired close together, and when she won’t let herself fully feel the excitement of how big her life has become, it kinks sideways into anxiety. As an experiment, he has her say “I’m excited” ten times while actually feeling it; her dread about “missing” her family flips into excitement.
Joe lays out why we shut feelings down. As kids, excitement got met with “calm down,” sadness felt like it would last forever, anger felt like it would destroy what we love, fear felt like it would make us less capable—so we learned to push emotions away. But the reverse is true: crying relieves, anger clarifies, and feeling fear (like a Navy SEAL under attack) makes us more capable. The work isn’t intellectual; emotions live in the mammalian brain and nervous system, reached through breath, unconditional love, and safe communal practice—not through understanding alone. He distinguishes self-improvement (which he doesn’t believe in) from self-knowledge and self-discovery, which unfold like a flower with no end.
The session’s throughline is the “golden algorithm”: the emotion we try not to feel, we invite back in exactly the way we’re avoiding it. Joe shares his own version—fearing emotional abandonment, he’d armor up or get needy, guaranteeing the abandonment, until he started looking forward to feeling it and the pattern dissolved. Kelly sees her own control of her husband Chris as a way to avoid an underlying feeling (likely helplessness), and her self-reliance and caretaking as a way to never feel needy or disappointing. Joe points out that encouraging Chris as a “project” keeps him in victimhood, and that her real move is to own her want—“I don’t want to be alone in this”—rather than manage him. Kelly leaves saying it helped her marriage more than anything.
Key Concepts
- Anxiety is often repressed excitement
- Saying “I’m excited” while feeling it can unkink anxiety
- “Calm down” trains us out of excitement in childhood
- The golden algorithm: we invite back the emotion we avoid, the way we avoid it
- Loving an emotion transforms it; trying to get rid of it doesn’t
- Encouraging someone as a project can keep them in victimhood
- The intellect’s ‘other shoe will drop’ story blocks every good feeling
- Self-understanding replaces self-improvement
Key Quotes
“I think you’re repressing your excitement so it’s coming out as anxiety.”
“Just say, ‘I’m excited’ 10 times. And but feel the excitement. … And now how do you feel about your family? Really? I’m excited.”
“If you got excited as a kid, it was calm down.”
“That which we resist persists. And we have this thing called the golden algorithm, which is the emotion that we’re trying not to feel, we invite in the exact way we’re trying not to feel it.”
“If you’re feeling your emotions to get rid of your emotions, then it doesn’t work. You have to feel your emotion.”
“The fact that you’re taking care of him and you’re agreeing that he’s somewhat of a victim in this situation and that he needs some caretaking is ensuring his position as a victim.”
“I don’t believe in self-improvement. I am I believe in self-knowledge, self-awareness, self-discovery.”
Transcript
Kind: captions Language: en In your talk of Chris, there’s a little bit of a control thing that comes up where you’re like, I need to like there’s a way in which he’s a project like a bit. >> Yeah. >> And one is that he’s agreed with the internal voice in his head that he needs to be improved instead of being who he is. >> Oh, [ __ ] Yeah. For so many of us, the emotions that we weren’t allowed to have as kids control us today. And I was asked to do this interview podcast with Kelly Leveque, who is an amazing woman, and we just started talking about life in general and the next thing you know, it’s turned into this coaching session. And in this coaching session, we really unpacked the anxiety that’s controlling her life and how her deep urge to help people often is an act of control and how all of that relates to the fact that she wasn’t allowed to have a certain emotion when she was a kid. >> It’s interesting because when I look back on just a time a time in my life where I felt like the least stressed and the most excited, fluid was when Chris and I like first met. He gave me like this container which felt like pure container of I could do no wrong like love. And so when Chris and I were building our little family, the two of us, I felt like I could I was limitless. I’m just thinking about the family system that Chris and I are creating and building and like, oh yeah, we’re evolved and we’re like using all you reading the books and doing the things and it’s like, no, we’re not like actually holding space for the feelings like in in all the feelings. Like I’ve heard like let your kid cry and I’ve I be thank goodness for like the teachings because I can go sit on the ground and be like, he’s just going to cry. He’s going to be really upset. Like this morning, it just happened this morning. Like my my middle son really loves these baseball socks and my oldest son, we have a sock box in the in the mudroom and they pull the socks out that they want and my oldest Sebastian put on the baseball socks and he put on his shoes and my 4-year-old was like crying, just losing it. Chris kept like coming into the mudroom and like being frustrated and walking away and like it was it was a long tantrum about the socks and I was like trying to find a solution and I’m like, what am I doing? I’m like, okay and he’s like and because we’ve used the verbiage from Listen and we’re like learning the process, I’m like, he’s like, I’m just feeling my emotions, you know, I need to get all my crying out and you know, Chris is like, how long is it going to take? Your mom has to get ready for a podcast. It’s like I I know that I need even more tolerance than I’m willing to give and sometimes I’m like, why am I not feeling those feelings? Like what do people do? >> Why do we shut down our vulnerability? Why do we shut out our feelings and how does that I mean, I feel like it numbs you. I feel like you’re living water living life underwater when you’re >> Yeah. So, my question to you would be I I’m sure Chris is a great guy who loved you incredibly well, but I I’m also sure it pales in comparison to the way that your boys believe in you. >> So, what makes it my question would be what makes it that you don’t feel that from your like how did your boys become an obligation instead of a instead of a >> a container of limitless >> three people believing in you, I mean, believing in you without question. I think this is this is maybe it’s the a fear that I don’t feel. Like I think I um almost like it’s too good to be true. >> Right. >> Like it just feels like >> Woo, I knew this was going to happen. Like I’m like waiting for the other shoe to drop. I’m just like I don’t like I don’t deserve this. Like Like I know I worked really hard and I know I sacrificed. I know there was like so much like grit and resilience in the early years. Like But I think it’s like what’s come back to me like there are moms that like had the same birthday as I had with Sebastian and like didn’t have the same outcome. Like There are people who have this role reversal of like what is traditional here that have had like relationships fall apart and like I’m sitting here like married to my best friend with three healthy children. And I got to build you know like I got to build a house and I’m like I’m so afraid that something bad is going to happen. It is. There’s like there’s no way you’re living your life without something bad happening. >> I know and I think you know Chris really I think for men too it’s like they provide and protect. >> And it’s not going to hurt less when it does because you’re doing this. >> I know. I know. >> Yeah. So >> I just throw myself into like the to-do list and I don’t feel. >> Feel. And my guess is the feeling you’re not feeling is actually excitement. >> Yeah, I definitely have like I definitely have lost that a little bit um because I’m scared. >> Yeah. I What I’m saying is I think you’re repressing your excitement so it’s coming out as anxiety. >> Okay. >> So, now I’m saying something a little bit different. Yeah, so it’s like take the thing that you’re You don’t have to keep this on the camera if you don’t >> No, I’m really open actually. I’m like I think it’s it’s hard for me to be open on Instagram and stories looking at myself on the camera, you know? And that’s kind of like why I love the podcast. >> Uh nice. >> Is because like I don’t go back and watch it or listen to it and I don’t really care, you know? Like I don’t >> Me, too. >> If people are going to give me a one star for or like I don’t know. Like I just I’m like this is for this feels good for me to be a megaphone for people who help people. >> And um and I get the most out of it. Like I love to learn and I love to grow and um >> Then let’s do it. >> So, often times when we’re anxious uh there’s just a repressed excitement. So, there’s two kinds of fear. One kind of fear is like, “Oh my god, I’m going to die.” One kind of fear is, “I’m walking into a bigger room.” >> Mhm. >> Speaking on a bigger stage, asking to uh take a bigger space. And I love the thing there’s a I think it’s the Jewish word for humility is taking your God-given space. >> So, it is an act of humility to actually step into that. >> You can feel I felt that in your your >> Yeah, I have yeah, I have like a big goal. >> And I have a big I have a big thing I want to do. >> You’re already doing a big thing. >> I know, but I just like >> Even that is a way not to feel the big thing that’s happening right now. Yeah. Mhm. So, you like you’re having a positive influence on hundreds of thousands of people. >> That’s a big thing. >> That’s like a dream coming true that you never probably ever thought was possible. >> So, what is it just to say So, think of the thing you’re most anxious about. What’s something that you’re most anxious about right now? I saw that little smirk. >> Um Well, a couple things come up. Like, I I think the the anxiety is like I’m with my family is like I’m missing it. >> Cool. All right. So, just think about that. And then just It’s an odd little hack. It works 80% of the time. Just say, “I’m excited.” 10 times. And but feel the excitement. >> I’m excited. I’m excited. I’m excited. I’m excited. I’m excited. I’m excited. I’m excited. I’m not counting. I’m excited. >> Great. And now how do you feel about your family? >> Really? I’m excited. >> Yeah, so a lot of our anxiety, especially the anxiety that is stepping into the bigger room, is just excitement that we’re not allowing ourselves to feel because the if you really allow a feeling of excitement, there’s less of you. Your identity starts to crack. >> Like, the identity becomes more spacious, less something that has to be defended. And so, it’s like >> Can you explain is that because I’m like when I’m saying I’m excited about my family, I’m going to be more connected to other people and less just me or is it like what what is what’s happening that >> Yeah. Neurologically, they from what I understand >> a deep breath. Now I need some water. >> Take your time. Neurologically speaking, they’re those two things are wired very closely to each other. And so, uh just the way I was saying anger when it’s kinked one way, kinked another way, excitement when it’s kinked can be anxiety. And so, unkinking it is just like actually allowing yourself to feel the anxiety and I’m sorry, the excitement >> without any hesitation, without any holding on to it. >> Right. Yeah. And so, that’s one one of the things that’s happening. But, the other thing that’s happening is So, somewhere in our systems, if you got excited as a kid, it was calm down. Right? Which And you know what it’s like as a parent, your kids get super excited, you’re like, “Come on, I just need to calm down.” And so, that that’s just the that’s where it was trained. Trained in all of us, almost all of us, like, “Oh, hey, settle.” >> Interesting. >> Yeah. So, there’s the there’s that. It usually happens between the ages of 0 and 8. So, that’s when we’re trained because of theta waves, like brain waves, that’s when we’re trained. So, we’re But, there’s also just the the And then our brains Our brains are really cool in the fact like our intellectual brains will tell us we can’t be excited because the other foot’s going to fall. >> Right? It tells us we can’t be sad cuz it’s going to last forever. You can’t get angry cuz you’ll destroy what you love. You can’t get You can’t be scared because you’ll be less capable. But, in reality, you know the crying Crying actually makes you feel better. It doesn’t last forever. Anger actually provides clarity. It doesn’t destroy things. Unless you get angry at people. >> And um fear actually Feeling fear actually makes us more capable. >> Like so, Navy SEALs, if they’re under attack, their whole thing is breathe deep, feel your body sensation, like be in and present with the fear, that actually makes you more capable. And so, so, what we’re doing is we’re saying, “I don’t want to feel anxious. I don’t want to feel fear. Push it away. Push it away.” Which makes us less capable and less capable and less capable. Whereas, if if you’re like, “Oh, hey, anxiety, fantastic. >> I can’t wait to feel more anxiety. This is an amazing thing. Like, it’s here to teach me the excitement that I’m not feeling. It’s here to teach me the boundaries that I’m not drawing. Typically, if you’re anxious, there’s a way that you’re not taking care of yourself, and there’s a way in which you’re not feeling excitement. And so, every time you’re anxious, it’s a direct signal to that information, and it’s it’s like awesome. >> It’s it’s such a paradigm shift to be able to like redirect and say like what am I what am I not feeling? What was I not allowed to feel? I think you just touched on it was like people are afraid to feel sadness cuz they feel like it’s never going to go away. which, you know, Chris and I joke, he’s like, “I don’t feel sadness.” He’s been through a lot. Like, we lost his dad, and he was like just the most amazing man, and his mom had an aneurysm and was in a coma for a month. And learned how to She was very healthy prior, and like it was on the golf course, and she learned how to walk and talk, and and she’s like fully functioning on her own in her own little house, and you know, like has community and us and her, you know, old neighbors and friends, and but um you know, it’s he’s been through a lot, and he was just like, “Yeah, I don’t feel sadness.” Like, he I think he’s afraid that like and and I think a lot of people are afraid. I think but all these emotions that are pent up, and people are like, “Well, I’ll just go take psilocybin for a whole day so I can feel all my feelings. Tell me everything that I’m feeling, and know everything, and then I’ll just integrate it.” And then I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” Like, I’ve seen people’s like whole families like totally unravel. I’ve seen people like take their business to like the the next level. It’s like such an unknown, but I’m like, “But why are we just why can’t I mean, and I’ll be the perfect example. It’s like, “Why can’t I just access those feelings? Why can’t I just like cry like I mean, just like cry on a drop of a hat like I’ve done three times during this podcast.” Is it just because you’re like, “I’m giving you this safe space cocoon to do this and I’m asking you the hard questions?” Like, what is like you know, should we all just be seeing a therapist and feeling >> I mean, some therapists aren’t capable of feeling their feelings either. So So typically, so I the way I think about the the system we have three brains. We have the prefrontal cortex, the the reptilian and the mammalian brain. And so uh the mammalian I would call the emotional part of the brain. >> The prefrontal cortex is the intellectual part of the brain and the nervous system. >> Focus, right? >> Our brain is right and the nervous system is reptilian, right? And if we had emotional experiences that weren’t allowed at young ages, it’s a reptilian holding. It’s not an It’s It’s You can’t intellect your way out of it. Unlocking your intellect helps you, but you can’t breath is a far better way to get to an emotional experience. The other thing that really helps is to know that you’re going to be loved unconditionally in the emotional experience, which is what’s happening here. Like, I love your emotions. I think they’re fantastic. Like, every time I see you have an emotion, I’m like, “Oh, cool. More freedom for you. This is great.” Because I learned how to do it with my kids, you know, that because of my daughters. That’s why I get so emotional when I think about my the gift of my daughters is because I can do this now with all these people. >> They helped you feel. >> Yeah, cuz they helped me feel, right? And so so uh being in a place where you’re loved helps. Breathing, like having specific breath work helps. Um we have a practice called emotional inquiry, which is a like an early access point to it. Um and then having um like all of our courses have a kind of a ritualized way of having emotions where it’s a safe space where there’s other people doing it and it’s a lot easier as humans because of our mirror neurons to get allow an emotion out when other people are having it. So, we literally just had It was so so beautiful. Like 50 people experiencing helplessness at the same time. It was amazing. It was amazing. I got like 10 phone calls. I’m walking around a conference now, Joe, and life is totally surreal. My heart is wide open and everybody at the conference, they’re just normal. Like it’s like that kind of thing. And so, it’s it’s it’s so Yeah, it’s those are the some of the things that help, but the you’ve got the best teachers in the world. You’ve got three kids and you just have to be with them and they will bring that [ __ ] up in you. >> You know, like you will you will feel it because they’re feeling it. >> How do you How do you model and I mean, I I understand like the crying piece. Like >> I I kind of just someone told me or I saw or I may it was an interview or something where they’re like sit on the ground, like get low, like be be a safe spot, like be a grounded place, don’t look like you’re going to run. but like the helplessness, the anger, like anxiety, excitement, like how do you create that container for it and how long I don’t like not to be like how long is it going to last, but I don’t want the sadness with anger, the anxiety to go on forever, but I feel like if I repress it, it doesn’t go away. >> Right, that’s right. So, um my experience is if you’re feeling your emotions to get rid of your emotions, then they it doesn’t work. >> You have to feel your emotion. Like if think about it as a um if I love my emotional experience, then my emotional experience just transforms. If I am trying to get rid of my emotional experience, then that which we resist persists. And we have this thing called the golden algorithm, which is the emotion that we’re trying not to feel, we invite in the exact way we’re trying not to feel it. So, for instance, anxiety. >> This may pertain to you. Uh I don’t want to feel the anxiety, so I’m going to do all the stuff on my list, but then I’ve done all the stuff on my list all day, and now I’m feeling really anxious because my nervous system is hyped. >> Right? Or I’m going to try not to feel sadness, so I am going to stop my child from having the full emotional experience, which is going to have them more disconnected, which is going to leave me in this kind of low-level sadness all the time. And so, um the way that we try to push away the emotion is almost always the way that we’re inviting that experience back into our world. And so, if you can actually love the emotion, I cannot wait to feel anxious. >> And you have that experience and you bring it in, and it’s very much like working out. >> Right? Every What do you mean, lifting 200 lb is something I can look forward to? It it hurts. Yeah, well, you can still look forward to it, as it turns out, or playing tennis or any of those things, and it’s the same with the emotional experiences. And there’s a ton of science that shows that um if we lean into our emotional experiences, um it’s healthier, but it also prevents us from recreating patterns. So, almost always what I see is, let’s say somebody, you had a girlfriend when you were in your 20s who kept on dating the same guy. He had different driver’s license, different name, but it was the same guy. >> Like, how did And typically, that happens because there’s an emotional experience they don’t they don’t want to feel completely, and as soon as they feel it completely, then that pattern stops. So, one of the reasons that I’m really effective as a coach is because people have been in >> years of therapy and patterns their whole life. >> can undo them really quickly because they’re inviting the emotional experience that they’re using It’s like the body is trying to get back to homeostasis. And so it’s like, okay, so as a kid you weren’t allowed to feel this. We’re going to recreate that experience over and over and over and over again so that you can keep on having an opportunity to feel this. As soon as you feel it, then you don’t need to have the experience. >> And so my story on that was when it hit me was and what allowed me to be married and successfully is that I just noticed that my with my family I did not grow up in a great situation and I felt very emotionally abandoned. So every time anybody would come close to emotionally abandoning me, I would do one of two things. First one would be, fine. >> And >> I don’t care. >> Yeah, I don’t care. >> Armored up. Well, then you’re going to emotionally abandon me cuz who the [ __ ] wants to be with that? >> Yeah, you’re like, I can’t break through your fortress. >> out. And the other one was, oh, needy, needy, needy, needy. Oh, god, got to get to get >> And nobody wants that either. So I would be emotionally abandoned. So by trying not to feel the emotional abandonment, >> I would always produce it. And then what happened was I started looking forward to it. Oh, I can’t wait cuz I know that every time I allow myself to feel that I’m healing something in me. >> And then emotional abandonment just stopped. >> Wow. >> And so that was my lesson. Oh, yeah, that’s And that’s what we call the golden algorithm, which is the emotion that we’re trying not to feel is we’re we’re inviting in the exact way that we try not to feel it. >> Do you ever feel like when you start working with people cuz they don’t know what their issues are? >> Always. >> Yeah. Because I feel like for a lot of self-help loving people or growth-oriented people, they’re looking outside of themselves being like, oh, this person tells me these are the things I need to work on and you try to like intellectually change everything who you are, your habits, your morning routine, whatever the thing is. And like but it’s people want deeper, right? And so maybe they’re searching for a quick fix answer like a journey or whatever it is. Sometimes when I think like okay, you’re telling me my childhood is informing my adulthood in the patterns I’m creating and what I’m inviting in and continuing to like just pattern and repeat and repeat. I’m almost like what memories do I have from my childhood? Like am I like repressing memories? And then I get worried like how will I access them and be able to understand what was >> So this is So this is your repressed excitement again. You just got handed like keys to the kingdom. >> And you immediately instead of going wow [ __ ] yeah, I got these keys. I can do this. You went to I’m worried that I’ll find it it it >> just repressed excitement. And but but to answer but but to answer your question, it’s like a flower unfolding and the more that So I don’t believe in self-improvement. I am I I believe in self-knowledge, self-awareness, self-discovery. >> And that and your authentic self is where you’re going to be happy, not in your perfect improved self. And so the more you understand yourself, the more is revealed. >> Just like anything, right? I can study physics for endless amount of time and continually reveals. I I’m continually having the experience of understanding myself better over time. And each one of those things is something Sometimes for for many years it was a whole bunch of memories that I had repressed that came back. But then it it yeah, it just keeps on going. There’s no end to it. It’s quite lovely. You know, it’s like business that way. You know, there’s no end to business. You get to build whatever you want to build, grow whatever you want to grow. It’s the same thing. See now the excitement is there. now you can feel it. This is good. >> Well, because it I think every single time someone tells you like you I don’t know, like that you could grow or or it feels better to get to know yourself and to understand yourself more and to kind of unravel than to build up and grow. >> You know, I mean, how could you stop evolving? >> Like, if I I couldn’t stop you from evolving. >> Yeah. No, it’s I’m going to keep doing that, but I want to I just want to feel my feelings and be present. >> And it feels simpler to me that you’re telling me that I have all the answers and that I have all the teachers here in my own little house >> Yes. >> to to help me be like the best version of myself. >> It definitely feels the best. >> Like, nothing feels better, I think, or like more real than when I’m not thinking about other things and I’m just like playing. >> You know, and being, and it’s really hard practice. Like, I think when I get to a state >> there there’s the thought pattern. So, I had talked about the three ways of stressed, and you just said it’s a hard practice. >> I don’t believe you. >> How would How would being yourself be hard? >> That’s where I go back to the fear that it’s going to go away and I need to be doing something in that very moment that would keep it from going away, but I don’t have control over any of that. >> How much of that is you being yourself? >> I’m distracted from myself. I’m not letting myself be myself. >> Yeah. The direct experience of yourself in this moment gets distracted in that And so, we have the story >> to love you. He’s going to be like, “It’s not my fault.” >> Oh, he’s not going to love me. I’ve done these couple retreats where like Tara and I are there and we’re all and we know half of the couple but we don’t know the other half of the couple and about like, I don’t know, 70% of them walk in just like with [ __ ] you, Jed. End of the retreat they feel better but they definitely feel like, “My life was one way and now it’s >> Yeah, I’m going to love it. I’m going to love it. He’s going to be like, “Just so you know, I don’t feel sadness.” And then I’m going to be like, “He thinks >> He doesn’t feel sadness. Yeah, so even if you want to go there, there in your in your talk of Chris there’s a little bit of a control thing that comes up where you like I need to like there’s a way in which he’s a project like a bit. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. that’s agreeing with the internal voice >> Just like, “Hey Luke. Hey Cass. You guys are still here, right? Oh my god. I don’t know. I mean, I’m sure my makeup’s everywhere. I don’t really I don’t really care. I won’t watch the tape. >> It’s not actually. It’s pretty amazing. >> Oh my gosh. >> I’m going to probably do that with everybody. >> Yeah, so >> With my kids, too. >> That’s right. I’m going to get to that in a second. >> I’m like going to have full body hives. >> And I just want to say that your reaction to that, like just also shows the authenticity of your love. So, I don’t want to miss that. I’m like such an [ __ ] to be married to. >> I would say such a human. We all do it. >> to be an explicit episode. We’re like, “Mhm, can we bleep ourselves out so the kids can watch it?” >> And then the second >> everywhere, Joe. >> That happens, yeah. >> I’ve been like hindering him. To feel safe. >> I’m like literally picturing him as a little boy. That photo is going to cry a lot longer than this episode. If you’re lucky. >> I’m going to need like grass on my human body for like >> Yeah, I guess I’m sun. >> He’s be like, “Um, babe, can you see if Faith can take the kids?” >> I would say, “Hey, babe, can you come and cuddle me for an hour?” Woo. The the second piece to it is that you’re doing that control because every time you’re trying to control him, there’s a feeling underneath that you don’t want to feel. So, that behavior of controlling him will go away when you feel the feeling that’s underneath it. This is part of that feeling. >> Helplessness is probably another. I’m like, what is I’m like in a state I’m like, what are feelings? What even is helplessness? What does that word mean? It like sounds funny. Helplessness. It’s just the feeling that you have. Next time you go, you notice yourself trying to make him a project. >> Don’t let yourself and feel what has to be felt. >> That’s all that matters. Doesn’t matter what I say it is. I’m, by the way, just blown away with your bravery. It’s It’s lovely. >> I think I think I wasn’t allowed to feel feelings when I was little. Like, I do remember being picked up from school and my mom I remember my mom crying, you know, and I remember my mom asking me how I was feeling and like letting me feel lonely or left out or and yeah, you know, like not smart enough or like not pretty enough or not cool enough or >> you know, all those things. >> That’s not the bravery I’m talking about. I’m just talking about the like what I see in you is that you care so deeply about um the the people who watch this and the and the their freedom and health that you are willing to be the example rather than than be the narcissist telling people what’s up. >> Oh, thanks. >> I mostly just want to like be happy. >> That’s how it works. >> You know. >> And not like worry that it’s all going to go away. >> Yeah, that that’s how it works is what I my experience is that it just keeps on growing and getting bigger and I mean there’s ups and downs, bad things happen, but my experience is it just keeps on growing and getting bigger if you have that sense of purpose that is driving you right now and allow yourself to feel all the holy crap, this is amazing, this is big. And it’s getting bigger and it could get even bigger if I let it. It’s a lot. >> Yeah. I think yeah. I think I like I think I say and maybe I’m like self-analyzing right now, but I think I say like follow your dreams, babe, like you can you you’re going to be a New New York Times best seller before me, like you’re going to you know, like he’s written screenplays and he’s written a book and I’m like just put it out there, like everyone’s going to love it, like don’t be afraid, just do it and like I’m like am I selfishly doing that because I’m afraid to do it alone or I’m am I like actually like like doing it for him because he thinks he has negative he has such negative self-talk. >> E- either way >> I’m just perpetuating his negative >> Even in the encouragement. >> [ __ ] Right? Why Who would you say that? Would you say that to me? >> No. >> Right. So, the fact that you’re taking care of him and you’re agreeing that he’s somewhat of a victim in this situation and that he needs some caretaking is ensuring his position as a victim. >> That [ __ ] sucks. >> That sucks. Right? How would you talk to him if you knew he was good enough? >> It doesn’t matter. >> Yeah, that’s right. >> And you do what you do what you do, it’s your life kind of a thing. >> Yeah, all all There’s a little bit of armor that just came up there. >> Like >> You do what you do, whatever. >> So, if it was open-hearted I just feel like I love you no matter what. Which is what he gave to you, which allowed you to >> do this. >> And do all these amazing things. Like I couldn’t have done it without him. And then the other piece which I really liked you saying, which is like would be such a lovely thing to say is like I would You can do whatever you do, and I would love you to put this book out in the world because I don’t want to be alone in this, and I feel alone in this. >> And you can do what you got to do. Like I just have to own my want. I don’t know, like I’m I’m not really like It’s crazy. Make him a project because that’s like really hard to be like needy or like >> Right, self-reliance does that. >> You’re like um a needy or like needing Yeah, not I do that and I realize like I think I probably do that with my parents now, too. Like I’m just >> That might be the feeling underneath the control. >> Um like I’m just like, I got it. It’s fine. I take care of everybody. I got my sister. I take care of You know, like I’m I employ my sisters. like I got this business. I’m fine on my myself, but I do kind of alienate myself and I don’t I don’t think I’ve ever like really asking for help. I don’t know if it was like weak or I don’t really know. >> Disappointing. >> Yeah, maybe. Yeah, that’s that’s the trap. And and when my experience of obviously I work with a lot of CEOs who have this experience self-reliance and one of the things that I notice is they’re the hardest people to help. That I fell into this category for a long time as well, which is helping me was really difficult to do. >> One cuz I look like I had it all together. Two is, you know, I would make sure like, oh, is this right? Was it done correctly? So I wouldn’t let people make their mistakes and so that also made it harder to help me. I needed a certain level of control that made it harder to help me. There was all sorts of things that I did to prevent that feeling. And it for me it was there was a lot of helplessness that needed to be felt. And and neediness, like that whole that whole kitten caboodle of emotion. >> Super, Joe. >> And one day in your future you’ll be like, oh, I feel needy. This is great. >> Who can I call? Yeah, I’m like, it’s just cultural, Joe. We all feel these feelings. >> That’s true. That is that’s also true, yeah. >> Or we all just don’t feel these feelings. >> Yeah, we all don’t feel these feelings and we just kind of like try to trudge. >> I mean, honestly, I’ve cried a lot today. It’s the best I felt in a long time. >> You look great. I don’t my daughters will watch this and they will ask you how the hell you didn’t have mascara all over the place. >> I don’t know. We’ll have to call Christie and be like, “Did you put that toxic non or waterproof stuff on my face again?” Don’t tell anyone. >> My daughter’s trick is that they cry like this. >> you look up so it drips to the side. Yeah, for sure. That’s a good move. >> I was watching one of they um I found this song one of my favorite ways of connecting with my daughters as teenagers is to find music and they send me music and I also send sunsets. So, this is one of the ways that we connect and I found a song about sisters who were 3 years apart. My sister My daughters are 3 years apart. One of them moving out. One of my daughters just moved out and the song from the older to younger. >> Oh. >> And so, it’s this uh it’s called the song’s called Marigolds. It’s amazing. And so, I I shared it with both of them while I like I went and visited one and shared it and I just like >> Blubbery mess. >> First verse, both of them were crying through the song. >> It’s amazing like how music does that. What is it about? Is it just like drowning out our own sounds and like you know, sometimes I feel like I need to go back to listening to music. I’m like listening to podcasts and >> self-helping myself and adding to my to-do list. >> I stopped listening to music for from like when the kids were two until 13 and then when they started listening to it again I when they started getting you know, teenage music stuff I was like, “Oh, let’s go.” >> They’re like, “Here’s an emo song for you, Dad. You ready to feel all your feels?” >> Exactly. We they like Americana our overlap is Americana. I can’t do the pop. I can do a little rap but mostly Americana. We’ll have to get your playlist. Put it in the show notes. >> good. >> Oh, what an emotional roller coaster this morning has been for me. >> What a pleasure to be with you on it. >> Honestly, like probably I mean mostly just like helped my marriage. Like big time. Like more than anyone. Thank you. >> You’re so welcome. My pleasure. >> How do I pay you all the money and come on the retreat? >> You’re invited to the retreat. We’ll get you in. We didn’t even like go into your background >> No, this is fine. >> Everyone pretty much saw what you did. Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, I don’t think giving you a smoothie was enough. >> that’s definitely enough. Definitely enough. See, even this even this self-reliance, you can just accept >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Total pleasure. >> Really like means a lot.