Summary
In this coaching session, Joe works with a man who struggles with being himself, particularly at work where he avoids interrupting people or saying what he thinks for fear of offending them. Joe walks him through an exploration of the impossibility of never offending anyone—demonstrating that even the most inoffensive statement could offend someone, and that trying to never offend requires disappearing entirely.
The core discovery is that the guest is avoiding shame—the feeling of disconnection that arises when someone gets angry or offended. When Joe role-plays conflict scenarios, the guest discovers that staying with the shame rather than avoiding it allows him to remain vulnerable and connected. The shame itself, when felt rather than avoided, flows through quickly.
The session leads to a powerful insight: avoiding shame creates more shame, because not being yourself is itself a disconnection. The guest realizes that conflict is actually necessary—for building trust, for healing shame, and for giving others the opportunity to grow. Joe connects this to parenting, showing how these patterns transmit intergenerationally when the guest’s three-year-old daughter has already learned to go into “solution mode” when her father gets upset.
Key Concepts
- Avoiding shame creates more shame through disconnection
- Conflict is necessary for building trust
- You can’t be seen if you’re not being yourself
- Shame is a signal of disconnection, not a problem to solve
- You cannot control whether you offend people
Key Quotes
“If you never offend anybody you can never really build trust.”
“Trust is built by having conflict and overcoming it together.”
“If you’re avoiding shame, if you’re avoiding being yourself, then there’s always a reason to be shameful.”
“If you love the shame, invite the shame, can’t wait for the shame—because that’s the chance to get to know the shame better and to integrate it.”
“The conflict avoidant leader does not have a team that is transforming, evolving, overcoming. They just sit on stagnant problems.”
“You can be yourself and you can heal your shame and you can give the opportunity for other people to grow… or you can try to not offend people and you cannot heal your shame and you can prevent the opportunities for other people to grow and you can have a stagnant organization.”
Transcript
I need to feel it and like feel through it and learn about it welcome to the art of accomplishment where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease hey everyone today’s episode is a coaching session between Joe and an anonymous listener of our podcast the session begins with our guest expressing a sincere desire to show up more fully in life despite fears of offending the people around him let’s dive in and see where this goes yeah tell me what’s what’s happening what do you want to work on what’s going on smile look at that smile oh I’ve been doing my best to find out where I’m stuck and what I’m landed on is like this being myself and like how do I do that for example at work like how do I interrupt people how do I say what I want without it feeling like I’m attacking them just like feeling like it’s you or feeling like it to them what what do you mean my projection I guess okay there’s air there’s actually something that you said before which is really interesting to me you said I’m trying to figure out how I’m stuck yeah but what makes it not obvious what makes you need to figure that out because I was feeling like I was doing great like oh I’m like in a good place now a good process things are moving and I oh I’m working with Joe okay let’s find a stuck place and like I can’t just say everything is going well hey what makes you not be able to say that this is great oh oh yeah what makes because it has to deliver quality so it’s it’s the same thing it’s the same thing right not being able to say what you think whether it’s positive or negative whether you think you’re interrupting or whether I’m wondering are both of them around quality how is your mind conflating if at all quality and being polite or quality and offending people I’m sure you’re onto something because now my mind just went like quality like I want to deliver quality or I maybe I have a should and then there’s this I want to be myself yeah so what makes you think that who you are isn’t quality I have this belief that people can’t handle me I’m confident Within Myself like oh I know like I know stuff I’m good at my work for instance and like but like oh but people get offended and okay so who has provided quality who hasn’t gotten who hasn’t offended people like can you point to one person I felt like Martin Luther King was the name that showed up oh he offended the heck out of people yeah yeah there was a whole bunch there was a whole bunch of white folks who were totally pissed at that dude yeah you’re very right maybe maybe he showed up in my mind like it’s so clear like like the clips I’ve seen from his speech yeah like he’s just he’s just himself 100 percent and that’s what I’m scared of you say it’s about quality but let’s go back to the question who has delivered quality who hasn’t offended people who is no one I can’t um no like that kind no no I know the people popping up in my mind it’s a bit of a trick question because like who do you know who hasn’t offended people now that you say it like that so what makes me want to let’s say I can do it let’s say there’s a button and we can push that button and you would never offend anybody again yeah would you want me to push that button there’s a hesitation oh yeah right yeah yeah the person is like yes and then quite quickly no but then I can’t be myself or I can’t like say my meaning or like do my work what would it look like if you couldn’t offend anybody like that’s it button press well there’s two versions the one where I’m like going out being an ass to everyone and like they’re all okay with it oh okay but then it’s like it’s like they don’t accept me they can’t they just ignore me so they do they don’t deal with me yeah I mean yeah I mean the other way meaning that the other way where like when I don’t do anything well then I’m not myself Beyond who you are literally what would it look like oh it would look like what I’m trying to do like like trying like being this completely different person to everyone and then but then like once two people other than me gets in the same room with me like it collapses because I can’t like I can’t please them both yeah right now say something that you are absolutely 100 won’t offend me uh you have a blue sweater right so that’s a pretty good guess but there’s definitely somebody who would be offended if you said you have a blue sweater maybe some fashion persons like this isn’t blue this is periwinkle yeah stupid oaf like I put hours into this sweater and you just call it blue like you don’t understand my Genius of fashion it’s periwinkle yeah somebody somewhere is going to be offended that it’s a blue sweater maybe it’s like a blood right like I don’t know like wearing blue could be offensive to some group of people on some you know yeah no like I got afraid oh is it a sweater I can only see like your shoes I just don’t even know how it would look because you would have to be able to read everybody’s mind and know exactly what they wanted to say and never say anything besides that or say exactly what they wanted you to say and you could never say anything besides yeah that doesn’t leave much but but feel it for a second like literally feel what it would be like to walk through the world only saying things that you knew it’s like it’s like I’m disappearing like I’m meeting someone and there’s like there’s no me there’s just like a reflection of their and their wants and should yeah yeah and that would be tricky because a lot of people get really pissed when you reflect who they are back yeah yeah that’s true yeah so what percentage of the time do you want to not offend people but I don’t want to offend everyone all the time uh that would even be hard that would also be impossible yeah like you can’t the most offensive people still have fans yeah and they’re doing their best okay well I did not offend if you could control it which you can’t control how would you control it what would be the exact dial setting you would put towards your offending of others since it’s not no offense okay I want to not offend others somewhere above 50 percent okay so the dial would be I can offend people 50 of the time but 50 minimum maximum maximum 50 of the time kind of funny yeah okay so let’s look at that let’s see what that would actually be like let’s say there’s somebody who’s just offended by everything so how would you deal with that I then I would have to make up for it with someone else I guess then that person okay you’re 100 offended then I need to find someone yet yeah name a person who you think operates in the world with a greater fifty percent offense rate okay okay I’m thinking going through people at work so just so you know somebody’s offended by you currently listening to this podcast but go ahead he laughs too much oh yeah and you smile notice you smile you actually kind of laugh at it oh it’s so it’s so mixed yeah but so part of me is smiling at all this yeah okay so who has the net 51 or greater net offense average like I’m I’m thinking just that it’s that difficult tells me even if you are right you know just that it’s that difficult tells me that the probability of you being that person is pretty low by just Who You Are yeah and also if I can think of someone I’m realizing yeah but that’s just my relationship to that person correct that’s right yeah and also like when I stop to think like I know I don’t offend most people most of the time right right even somebody like the most offensive politician that you’ve ever seen like somehow or another gets close to 50 of the votes yeah and and even if people aren’t voting for them doesn’t mean they’re not offended by them they might find it humorous or disturbing but maybe not offended if you had to choose okay you could be yourself or you could offend people 51 of the time like you like you either have to offend people 51 of the time and be yourself or you have to be yourself and offend people 51 of the time right or not offend not be yourself and therefore not offend people 50 of the time how yeah if I got that correct like yeah my gut tells me I want to offend people then okay yeah I want to be fine with it yeah and I want to do it in a way how are you not fine with it now you’re offending people now all the time daily and yet you here you are sitting here talking about it as a because that might offend people more you’re on like you’re doing this podcast and that’s gonna definitely offend some people so how are you not fine with it currently I’ll play so okay I’m fine with it now so then I’m curious though so what happens today in a meeting like someone was talking too much and like I’m confident with myself okay I have the information I need I want to stop this meeting and I did eventually but like there’s this no I I can’t she’s in the middle of a sentence oh then she started another sentence and then okay I’ll just wait to no okay I’ll wait to you know so what what happens then what makes me lose this yeah that’s a great question so what’s the emotion you’re trying to avoid in that moment anger her anger safe hair first and then anger came up okay so the fear you’re feeling because you’re scared to interrupt her yeah so you’re scared that she’ll get angry and then what will happen to you if she gets angry what’s what’s the internal feeling you’re trying to avoid oh like then my mom showed up so what is it what’s the feeling that comes in you when that person gets offended oh there’s this unconnected I’m shut out yeah often shame is that is what that feels like but but we’ll just say unconnectedness so something yeah makes sense yeah yeah with humans shame is basically the feeling you get with disconnection often you know like a little kid with a whole bunch of aunties and the little kid farts and the aunties oh my God I can’t believe that you farted that kid’s gonna feel shame because that disconnection but if all the aunties laugh and be like oh you little stinker then they’ll probably fart again they don’t feel shame yeah oh it’s just pulling away this disconnection so that’s the feeling you don’t want to feel shame so let’s let’s see let’s verify this if if I could snap my fingers and you couldn’t feel shame when people when people got angry at you for being rude or whatever yeah problem solved okay right yeah that feels very true yeah yeah so what’s so uncomfortable with that shame what’s what’s wrong with it it’s like the manifestation of unconnectedness of being alone can we experiment with it yeah your microphone is like blowing out and this podcast isn’t going to be usable and like if you’re wasting my time you’re wasting my time so don’t don’t disconnect from yourself for a moment there’s sadness first I’m smiling and then there is like this emptiness and sadness yeah so what happens if you just say that to me I know you are but as if it as if we’re in a real conversation not not this this isn’t real but if we were in a like more normal conversation if you’re like oh wow it makes me sad that that we’re disconnected right now I feel I’m starting to feel disconnected and that makes me sad well don’t blame me for that don’t blame me that we’re disconnected it’s your microphone uh I’m fighting the impulse to say I’m sorry great well first of all let’s try that try saying you’re sorry but that doesn’t mean to buy into the shame I’m sorry yeah um I’m sorry there’s a different kind of sorry there yeah I can feel it yeah I’m sorry about it yeah sorry about my microphone yeah it’s like it’s like oh I’m sorry that you hurt yourself it’s not like I’ve done anything wrong yeah like I’m sad about the situation yeah too yeah okay so let’s try it again don’t blame me that you’re sad it’s your microphone I’m I’m like I’m not the one who who bought your microphone and said it was fine I’m sorry that my microphone is busted all right I’m not sure how we can fix it right now I just can’t believe this you you’ve wasted my time we should just end this thing right now just end it there’s like so this wall coming or like pressure from my body so the only thing that’s happening right now that’s different than normal is that you’re actually going into the emotional state instead of normally you’re trying to fend it off hand it off yeah exactly right so if you keep on going in then you keep on being vulnerable and then there’s sadness yeah so but what’s the problem and it’s not that’s scary it’s not scary or it is scary then it is not that scary yeah let’s try it a different way just because a lot of people won’t just get angry like that so just say something to me that might be offensive as true as you can make it yeah your hat is a bit off and looks weird sorry it’s so true okay do it again I will I have to be in in character go ahead say it again okay okay Joe your hat is a bit off and it looks weird okay fine I gotta go I’ll see you yeah there’s this freeze so be with the shame and what wants to be said don’t go I don’t want you to go so vulnerable right yeah yeah no I’m leaving now like don’t guilt me now I’m leaving I’m sad that you’re leaving I still don’t want you to leave right it might even be sometimes okay yeah I understand you want to leave you might actually not want them to stay it could happen too yeah yeah like yeah at the other side of this then like both options are more clear yeah it seems to bring us back to that question which is like well what made you have to think that there was something wrong what made me think yeah you’re beginning you said I’ve been thinking about what’s wrong findings where I’m stuck yeah it’s an interesting thing like in a weird way what you’re doing right now is assuming that there’s nothing wrong what’s happening in your system for you to get to the place that you’re getting to right now they get upset and you’re like oh there’s nothing wrong with this there’s nothing wrong with the emotional place that I’m in how do I want to react it’s it’s the other side of the offense story too which is if you never offend anybody you can never really build trust if I never offend anybody I can never really build trust think about the least defensive person you know oh yeah yeah I’m like where’s your boundaries trust is built by having conflict and overcoming it together I need to have conflict I want to have oh that’s a hard sentence I want I want to say it I want to have conflict really make sure that last part of the sentence is there I want to have conflict and learn how to overcome it yeah so people can trust me yeah and I can trust myself I’m looking at your face you’re like oh wait that’s a different reality like the most trustworthy people are not conflict avoiding when you just look at them in the world like the best CEOs that you would trust to put your money in are conflict avoiding the best social activists aren’t conflict avoiding the best doctors aren’t conflict avoidant the best CPAs whatever it is the best friends yeah people who tell you what they actually think instead of trying to make you happy those are the ones we value yeah so then it’s like okay I’ll I’ll go back into the world and I’ll make some conflict yeah you don’t even have to make it it’s just what’s gonna happen if you are human yeah it seems to be the course of humanity we we have conflict I’ll accept conflict and feel into it and through it and then it’s like some friends won’t like it as much as others correct here’s a weird question how else are you gonna heal your shame how else am I gonna heal my shame other than conflicting utterly conflict and distancing myself from some friends in the process maybe who knows what they’re going to do that’s that you can’t control that hmm okay and my belief you’re gonna risk it for sure how am I gonna heal I said I know it’s always a good spot when I like lose all thoughts like like the question is how else could you heal your shame how else can I heal my shame if it is inviting conflict what’s what’s another approach to heal my shame feel it and learn about it yeah and so then there would have to be another way than Conflict for me that’s it for my shame to get triggered yeah brilliant I guess I can’t shame myself I don’t know if I’m in a desert I could project like my parents or something great but you are doing that yeah I’m already doing that the broader Point here is that if you love the shame invite the shame can’t wait for the shame because that’s the chance to get to know the shame better and to integrate it it’s not to get rid of it because if you love it and you want it then you’re not getting rid of it if you see shame that way as just a signal that you’re disconnected then it is like it’s like having a constant reminder whenever you feel and so it allows you to reconnect it’s an amazing it’s an amazing feature like when you said that my comment about your hat showed up and I felt shame about it it’s a pretty ugly hat it is do you see the creases right here it’s because my head is so huge and it’s like clearly Sun bleached and it’s crooked it’s my events at my hat is about me so this is the other point about it is like you want to take away my healing journey how do I know you’re just not stuck I don’t know you’ll actually heal oh correct you don’t that’s not your business I’m gonna take away your opportunity if you look at Tibetan teaching like one form of the Tibetan teaching they take the monks in and the first stage of the teaching is we’re friends and and you build this deep connection and then the second stage of the teaching is they do everything they possibly can to offend the student the student informed up front no of course not okay because if I offend you then I am pointing to an ego that still is running your life yeah now now granted that’s a consensual agreement to some degree and like you’re there for the teaching and you trust the teacher to teach you the way that and at the same time there’s truth to it in in every aspect of this right that that if you are constantly avoiding the conflict then you are stopping the chance for people to learn and you see this in companies all the time the conflict avoidant leader does not have a team that is transforming evolving overcoming they just sit on stagnant problems yes right whereas leaders who aren’t conflict avoidant Steve Jobs would be a great example of that Innovation all the time yeah I’m not suggesting you have to yell at people please I’m not but but my point is that that conflict avoidance pretty much can guarantee stagnation in an organization and in people and in marriages and then so just to weigh this out you can be yourself and you can heal your shame and you can give the opportunity for other people to grow and you can have a non-stagnant life or you can try to not offend people and you cannot heal your shame and you can prevent the opportunities for other people to grow and you can have a stagnant organization well I like the first one the choice is quite obvious however we don’t make choices logically we make choices emotionally right so if I take an emotional center out of your brain then you cease to make decisions you spend you know half an hour deciding what color pen to use there’s great neuro research on this so it’s really not a logical decision it’s just I don’t want to feel that shame that’s it and then we even turn that into a spiritual thing where we’re like I’m not doing as good spiritually because I’m feeling shame you know I’m not making progress there’s all sorts of great reasons we have to get rid of our emotional states whatever they are I you said like all right this is the scariest I wouldn’t do it he said I was choosing what what the color something and I I wanted to joke about choosing what color hat to use and then I like oh then I would feel shame like oh I should say it yeah I just did you heard it and also like I felt shame for not saying it because oh I’m not being a good coachee or whatever it’s called right so this is where the voice in the head shows up it’s like if you get mad at me then I feel disconnected and if I don’t be myself I feel disconnected yeah can you get mad at me I feel disconnected or if I’m not myself I feel disconnected right it’s a lose-lose that’s why the problem when you showed up was how like I I’m not being myself that’s the problem because that’s disconnection and I don’t I don’t I don’t know any way to heal that I don’t know any way that somebody can feel connected and not be themselves but I definitely know lots of ways that people can feel connected even when someone’s raging at them yeah or being conflict avoidant or being passive aggressive or whatever people’s reactions are to your connection isn’t doesn’t require anyone else my connection doesn’t require anyone else yeah I’m thinking about my daughter she’s she’s a good teacher and like she might give me a lot of practice yeah how old is she uh three and a half uh yeah so she’s like yeah do you remember in the early days where you were like flustered and she would do something like say I love you what’s flustered agitated like you would be a little amped up or agitated or disconnected and she would like come over and say I love you Daddy or do something to create connection between the two of you do do you have recollection of her doing that I have one recollection that comes to mind where she’s like I got mad because she spilled milk a couple of weeks ago yeah and she’s only got very solution mode yeah yeah surprised like oh whoa that’s some great problem solving yeah right so that’s how she’s that’s how she’s found to find connection with you she has started to realize at three and a half that the way to get connection with dad is to solve problems to help him yeah ouch right there’s a great book called Parenting by Connection by Patty Wipfler it’s called Listen but it’s based on parenting by connection and the whole thesis is if the kid feels connected your whole job is to help them feel connected and if the kid feels connected then there’s no issues it’s only when a child feels disconnected that things have that there’s a problem and I don’t think it’s any different with adults teams teams that feel connected are more you know more functional people who are more connected are more functional when CEOs connect with themselves better they become better CEOs they’re not acting out of fear yeah so what I’m experimenting with her these days is just like connecting on an emotional level with her in her emotion and like holding the space not just saying that’s okay but now I got a sense that there’s also like a job for me because she has learned from observing that when I feel bad I fix things so I need to stop taking things you don’t you don’t need to you don’t need to do anything that would be yeah you can just be yourself what if that’s fixing things that’s fine just notice what happened you had this recognition that oh maybe I’m hurting my daughter shame occurred okay and you went to fixing things by changing yourself yeah it happened just now just now instead of sitting with the and this is as if that’s not going to solve it quicker than that’s like the shift inside me the scare is so scary don’t worry you won’t stop solving problems I promise yeah you know it’s like it’s scary I’m not really in touch with how all the scaredness it’s just like I realize like there’s this huge wall it’s like it’s almost unimaginable to just like not big than just staying in the shame and vulnerability how long do you think the shame will last it was it like minutes I’m glad I said it before my voice just no but on the other hand you know timeless makes it so it’s an alternative but I don’t want those minutes yeah well I want them I’m not able to access them at this it’s difficult now there’s that word again it’s hard it’s scary I need to exercise reps help sure perhaps yeah but I need shame reps there’s no no that’s fixing myself is it it depends on the approach is taking a walk every day fixing they’re just more enjoyable yeah because I’m creating this like meta Loop like yes oh I shouldn’t fix myself because that’s fixing fix yeah and then everything becomes wrong damn right right Ah that’s what happens when you don’t feel the shame what happens everything becomes wrong oh and I don’t yeah when I don’t feel ashamed when I avoid the shame Everything feels wrong yeah I don’t understand the logic but I do understand somehow yeah yeah so you get it you get it in your body and your brain hasn’t caught up yet that’s totally standard so just to help just to help with the mental part of it if you’re avoiding shame if you’re avoiding being yourself then there’s always a reason to be shameful if I’m avoiding shame then I’m also avoiding being myself which is disconnected yeah which is disconnected and then more shame shame loop yeah yeah that’s it yeah so I’m making it worse yeah so you’re either looking around the room trying to figure out how not to feel shame which is a disconnection which creates shame or right or you’re saying something that’s not true so that you don’t get somebody upset so you can avoid the shame so that creates shame yeah yeah whereas if you embrace it then what’s to avoid then you just be when I embrace it it flows through yeah what yeah you’re happy to embrace shame then what would stop you from being yourself I’m happy to embrace shame well there’s not much left sorry and there’s just me hello I’m going to offend you and I’m feeling this shame yeah I want to say oh I am not shameful no but I am shameful and like and that’s okay yes yeah and then like there’s then what and there’s life yeah and there’s just like wow that was incredible by exploring triggers and feeling into the shame that underlies conflict avoidance our guest finds that he can stay in connection with himself even when others are angry with him or offended I was particularly touched by the moment of insight into how these patterns show up in connection with his young daughter which really demonstrates how exploring an issue we see as impacting our daily work life can end up having intergenerational relevance thanks for listening