Summary
Joe and his co-host explore a paradox observed in a group of successful founders: they appreciate having resources for personal growth, but fear that losing those resources would force them back into anxiety-driven patterns. Joe points out the anxiety hasn’t actually changed — it’s just shifted form. The fear of not having money became the fear of losing money.
The conversation broadens into a deep exploration of the belief that we need something — money, health, meditation, the right partner, a guru’s approval — to be free. Joe argues that this belief is the primary obstacle to freedom itself. Freedom is a birthright, not an achievement. Every tradition that teaches freedom points to the same thing: nothing is required. He cites Mandela finding freedom in prison, Byron Katie’s breakdown as breakthrough, and wealthy people being least likely to recover from alcoholism because they lack the acute pressure that drives transformation.
They distinguish between external freedom (resources to do what you want) and internal freedom (being who you are without constraint). External freedom has no ceiling — even billionaires feel constrained. Internal freedom is available right now, to anyone, regardless of circumstances. The conversation lands on the insight that the most productive orientation is: “This moment is exactly where I’m supposed to be — this is where the lesson is.”
Key Concepts
- Anxiety changes form, not substance
- Nothing is required for freedom
- Comfort can prevent transformation
- External freedom and internal freedom are different things
- What you fear losing reveals your conditions on freedom
- This moment is exactly where the lesson is
- Loss can deepen freedom
Key Quotes
“If they’re scared that they need something to be happy, the anxiety hasn’t changed — it’s just changed forms.”
“When you hit a place where you feel that deeply profound freedom you realize all of that was complete bullshit. There’s no need for money or eating in a certain way or exercising the right way or having the perfect love.”
“Your freedom — none of that is required.”
“The only difference between the teacher and the student is that the teacher sees that it’s true about them.”
“Right now every single person can be themselves. Nothing is stopping you.”
“The thing that I need to get there is presenting itself to me right now. This moment. Not the next moment.”
Transcript
I was with a group of Founders recently and it’s a group that’s really focused on their inner work many of them have achieved a lot of material success in their lives often at the expense of their emotional and even physical well-being and they’re now investing their time and money into workshops and Retreats and meditation and therapy in our chat many expressed a deep appreciation for having the resources to do this and also a concern that if they didn’t have those resources they’d be left with no choice but to go back to their old ways of driving themselves with fear and anxiety so this had me wondering how often do we take something that can legitimately support us in our path whether it’s resources or security or love or community and then turn it into something we’re afraid to lose placing yet another condition on our freedom and our joy how’s it going today Joe well that’s it’s a heck of a story you just told I mean what what hits me as soon as I hear that story first of all it’s like go back to anxiety they’re still in it like if they if they’re scared that if they they need something to be happy the anxiety it hasn’t changed right the I was anxious that I needed to get this money and now I’m anxious that it’s going to go I I’m anxious that I’m incomplete without money is it hasn’t changed right that that anxiety is still there so it just yeah see it’s changed forms but it’s the same anxiety correct yeah so now they just have potentially a little more time um so on the plus side they have a little more time to dedicate to it on the downside they uh don’t have the acute anxiety on a day-to-day level to work on right right like if you if you look at the data on who is least likely to recover from alcoholism it’s independently wealthy people that don’t need to work that’s also shit I mean everybody needs to work but who don’t have like have a need to work every day to drive a certain amount of income so that they can feed themselves um like the the truth is that those are the people that are least likely to recover from alcoholism there’s no flaming field if you will there’s no immediacy that that creates a drive to make their life better there’s nothing that can fall apart as easily as like losing your job and not being able to feed your family so you can just keep on drinking um so so I I I question the whole premise um but what it does make me think about is how much the idea that we need something to become free like that that idea seems to be and it and and when you hit a place where you feel that deeply profound freedom you realize all of that was complete shit there was there’s no need for money or eating in a certain way or exercising the right way or having the perfect love or whatever it is none of that actually is required yeah yes this reminds me of a personal story for myself as well like several years ago I had I had made it my business was successful I had made successful Investments with that money and made a ton of money I was like okay great now now I can do the things that matter to me and not any of that other shit that would like hinder me on my path and what happened when I look back on that time in my life it was actually in many ways very stagnant there was a lot that I was learning I was spending money and time and doing Retreats and exploring all the different things that were out there I definitely learned a lot and I definitely explored a lot in myself and I’m grateful for it and there are certain things that just did not address during that time and ultimately those things the avoidance of them brought things crashing down and then I had to go through the struggle of it I had to readjust My Lifestyle I had to lay people off that I cared about I had to re-engage in areas of my life that I thought were on autopilot and that I took for granted and yeah uh and that was actually what really initiated a really deep stage of a really productive stage of personal growth for myself and looking back on it I can see I’m like I don’t know was that better off for having had the money in the time or not it’s just a different path but it was not necessarily better or worse and you know even the idea that like one needs to be better than another is also an anxiety of am I doing it right yeah I mean it’s a it’s an old question right it’s like if you can dedicate yourself to the monastery or are you going to be a householder and if you’re a householder is it less likely for you to become awakened right like that was the old way of asking this question and um and there’s definitely certain things that there’s certain things that are are are supportive like not having to worry about feeding yourself can be very supportive if you look at maso’s hierarchy of needs it’s like it’s pretty clear that when you’re you’re more likely to worry about things like being authentic and being um like finding your truth if you have the rest of your world taken care of your basic needs taken care of at the same time you know I I don’t will very very seldom take on um like extremely wealthy people who aren’t who don’t have a project because I find that uh often That’s Entertainment for them like it’s just entertainment because they don’t if push comes to shove they don’t have have they often don’t have the reason to get uncomfortable to embrace the intensity which is the thing that actually pushes us along the path more effectively than anything else yeah some some do naturally but many don’t yeah yeah something else that this reminds me of is the like the the parable from the Bible about how it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the Gates of Heaven and yeah a bunch of different ways to read that and even like historically to read what was even meant but one way that I really appreciate is that there’s uh there’s an idea I don’t know if this existed but there’s an idea that there was a there was a particular gate in the wall of Jerusalem that required like it could fit a camel it was only the width of a camel and the height of a camel on its knees so the Camel had to remove all of well or people had to remove all of the load from the camel for the camel to get through and this was for reasons um presumably and that’s fascinating to me because it’s like I I I know many people now who have had a similar experience to what I described where yeah they made it in some way they got everything that they wanted and then they were just driven nuts with anxiety about losing it until they lost it and then they finally found a deeper level of Freedom that like apparently a lot of them describe like I had to go through the experience of you know building hundred million dollar company and having the whole thing fall apart to finally like now I actually can show up fully in a company the in a way I couldn’t before right right yeah yeah yeah I’ve seen that right I and I’ve also seen entrepreneurs uh do things similar to destroy certain revenue streams so that new revenue streams can grow there’s like there is this interesting pruning cycle that is required for some people for me it it wasn’t like that at all all it was I was dedicated to my self-discovery over everything else I just dropped everything I never I never said oh I’m gonna build something so I have enough money to be free right I I I just went to debt I just sat in a room and meditated for years and and focused on my journey um not by doing other people’s experiences but by doing experiments and running my own experiences and so so for me it wasn’t that that wasn’t my path but it definitely sure is a lot of people’s paths right and some people’s paths are going to the very bottom of their pain to get you know to find their way out like to to really have an extremely painful life to find their way out I I can’t tell you what makes which one happen but what I can tell you is in in all the cases the thing that’s that’s that is similar is there’s an idea that for me to be free I need to X I need to have money I need to not have money I need to you know be a wealthy person I need to not be a wealthy person I need to be somebody who’s in shape who really takes care of my body I need to forgo my body I need to like whatever it is there’s some set of ideas and this is the most important thing about it is that there’s some set of ideas that people hold everybody who’s listening to this holds if I want to get to Freedom I need to do X Y and Z meditate for seven years or or you know have a lot of money or whatever it is and and all of it true be healthy not not have physical pain not have not smoke not sleep around not gain approval have skills that are marketable and relevant exactly yeah none of it’s true your freedom none of that is required and and there’s and you don’t have to look far to figure this out like if you look at Mandela’s writings if you look at how he came out of that prison like he had the exact opposite of Freedom right like he he did not have a good diet he did not have a good exercise routine he did not have any power he did not have any privilege he did not have any wealth he did not have any right all all he had was time with himself and and and I’ve definitely met people who didn’t even need the time with themselves right I can like almost hear somebody in the in the okay now I’ll just go live in the cave until I have that freedom which is is one way to get there don’t get me wrong if that I’ll go meditate until I’m in debt right exactly exactly but none of that’s true it’s it’s actually seen through that thought that is a more direct path to Freedom is seen through the thought that you need the money or you don’t need the money so so we’re talking about how people think they need X in order to have y and we’ve talked about it in terms of freedom and what exactly do we mean by that what are we talking about here when we when we say that that’s a really good question I think the the the there’s I think there’s a conflation between two ideas typically when somebody’s talking about Freedom so the one is the freedom to do what you want to do and that usually seems to be a thought process of resources once I have a billion dollars I’ll be free because then I can do the things that I want to do and then the other freedom is like this feeling of oh I can be who I am and I and I’m not nothing’s dictating who I am and how I’m going to be like that which is another idea of freedom and and but and then both of them have this emotional experience that we call Freedom and and so the second is really where the spiritual like when the books talk about finding Freedom like whether it’s you know the the mysticism of Christianity or the Buddhism or what not the the that freedom is they’re talking about that feeling of like oh I’m no longer burdened by any internal or external structure of what I’m supposed to be and I can just be myself the the interesting thing is the first one the one of like oh have the resources to do what I want to do it’s like there’s so much truth to that and there’s so much BS to that so just as an example like if you and I were living in 1820 and we became the most powerful humans on the planet and we were the wealthiest humans on the planet we would not have the freedom that we have today as that that poor people in America at least have we have we can have air conditioning we can have have heat we can have we can get on an airplane we can get on a train you know we can with we can like go into a store and buy a soda pop like or whatever like have 20 different choices of of of potato chips we can get coffee made for us on you know and 25 different varieties like we have more now than we ever did and it it it doesn’t make anybody then go okay I have like there’s never enough in that world right and I know plenty of billionaires who have what everybody else would call Freedom but they don’t have the freedom to buy this company or sell this thing or get to the moon or you know live on mars or whatever there’s always something next that you can’t do or they don’t allow the freedom they don’t allow themselves the freedom to date the person that they want to date for whatever reason you know there’s like scared their money’s gonna be taken yeah right so yeah it’s like the difference between between the external freedom and how like what we could do in the world and how we interact with the world and then the freedom of how we actually are as we are doing that interacting and whatever is available to us right and so that it’s that second Freedom that in general I think anybody who’s doing self-discovery is looking for I I will say that they they might have something with the other form of freedom but this like people who are into self-discovery that’s what they’re looking for they’re looking for this feeling of oh I can be I think joyful happy content in a world where I am being myself despite where I feel free to be who I want to be and I’m not constrained whether it’s by the voice of my head or by the thoughts of the people around me or by some set of like shoulds that Society thinks or whatnot like I think that’s the that’s why it’s described as freedom and that freedom doesn’t require anything that freedom is a Birthright like right now every single person can be themselves Nothing is Stopping You there’s consequences potentially to being yourself you might not like them and you might choose to not be yourself because you don’t want those consequences that’s all true it doesn’t mean you can’t be yourself I mean an argument could be made that what’s stopping us is our awareness of of it and and there there’s a way that this kind of inverts the kind of the privilege Spectrum where when I was in the situation where I was able to just pay for what I wanted to pay for and do what I wanted there were a lot of things I just wasn’t in contact with that became rather than fears like you said earlier anxieties that were present with me every day in in my face they are present with me every day in a way that I was able to effectively push away so I was able to like neatly go out and have the kinds of growth and Spiritual Development experiences that I might have that served the identity that I wanted to have even though I thought that I wasn’t going for an identity and then there were the ones that were actually going to give me the deepest growth and those were the ones that I wasn’t as aware of even though they were like present in my Consciousness every day and so there’s there’s like many stories of people who they were not on a personal development or selfis Journey per se they just went through some really rough shit and like Byron Katie I think is a really good example of this if I recall her story correctly she was just in a room one day and she wouldn’t even let herself sleep on the bed she had to sleep on the floor because she wasn’t good enough for the bed in her mind because she was just in so much shame and struggle about her life and something just popped and the way that it popped in my opinion is that it she became so close to it that she had no separation from that anxiety anymore and she had to feel it and so there’s like an interesting interesting thing like like you were saying with addicts who have all the resources to continue to enable themselves that we’re we can consider ourselves lucky when we have experiences that bring us into contact with those internal barriers to seeing ourselves yeah I mean the easiest way to for me to think about this is like when I was in my 20s I had no money so to get around and travel which I wanted to do I hitchhiked and I hitchhiked up to Alaska and I hitchhiked around California and I got to meet people that I will never get to meet again in my entire life because of what happens by hit checking by not having the money or sitting on the back of a Greyhound bus and meeting the person who um you know had 13 kids and you know had like an immense amount amount of freedom in the back of a Greyhound bus like I’ve met the folks who who have seen through this um veneer or through the the like fog of War but the war is the internal War like they’ve seen through that fog of war and I’ve seen them poor I’ve seen them Rich I’ve seen them like I’ve seen them in shape I’ve seen them fat and smoking I’ve seen them in all different ways man like it’s don’t get me wrong if you if you’re overweight and you’re smoking it doesn’t feel physically as good your your thoughts probably are different than if you are in shape and you are not smoking but it doesn’t mean that you can’t find the freedom like that freedom is there no matter what and it’s just whether you’re whether you can recognize it and one of the mechanisms to to do is to just like I think it was Adyashanti talked about this somewhat differently right if you look look at Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie they went into this huge depression and then popped out which I I’ve seen happen with a couple folks but Adyashanti talks about his relationship with Zen and he and he describes it as like banging his head up against the wall until finally he just like like he just fought it fought it fought it until he couldn’t fight it anymore so it’s the end of that fight whether it’s depression or whether it’s through hardcore meditation or whether it’s by Grace or whether it’s by just like oh this there’s nothing actually in my way but it’s the end of the fight and with that fight ends an identity too right because a lot of what keeps us in the fight is an identity yeah I’m thinking of a time when like during this period where I was I had more money than I ever had but I was more anxious about money than I’d ever been and there was a moment when I nostalgically went back to a moment in my 20s where where I was completely broke in Cape Town South Africa and I like wrote down my phone number and my email address on napkins and started passing them around to hosts in the area seeing if anybody would do like needed some web web work and like I nostalgically nostalgically looked back on that time from that moment as like Ah that’s when I was truly free yeah and it’s interesting there’s a way that I was like clawing back to an old identity at the same time as I was like trying to get out of my current one and and also there was like a deep recognition of yeah the like the shit of the story that I was in that I was somehow not free yeah yes and and with it also there’s the thing about money in particular is there’s some other aspects of it as well and it this is can be with any of it it can be with like uh being in shape or having the perfect diet or whatever there’s often times this an identity in it that will suffer will will require it to dissolve meaning if you were with money in this time and you were like uh this is a burden this money is a burden and I deserve the burden you’d probably still have the money right if you felt like uh this money is a blessing and I deserve the blessing and I feel great about this blessing you probably still have the money um if you felt like uh oh this money is good but I’m avoiding because of it or because or this money is uh I’m not I’m privileged and I should have a certain amount of guilt around this money that I right like then potentially that’s going to be something that allows that money to leave quicker than it would otherwise and this isn’t like a perfect like algorithm but without a doubt I noticed that people’s relationship with the money that they have or they don’t have has a big has a big correlation with what happens to the money that they have or they don’t have yeah and for me it was I saw money as Freedom which was an implication that without it I wasn’t free and that was the fear yeah yeah right and and then the the golden algorithm kicks in and you’re and you’re inviting the feeling that you’re running away from yeah so so that anyways that’s but this happens with all of all of it like oh once I meditate long enough I will be free is a big trap once I have enough money I’ll be free is a big trap once I get it once I listen to the guru long enough and I get it then I’ll be free it’s like all of it is just or I get their approval or or I get someone or I find the partner that loves me as I am which then once you find a partner that loves you as you are then all of a sudden you’re afraid to lose them and you go through all the right all the golden algorithm stuff to to push them away exactly or I I have to stop caring whether people love me to be free like all of it’s BS the the the the truth is you can recognize your freedom right now right right now there’s there’s nothing stopping us from being who we are there’s nothing stopping us from being in touch with ourselves there’s nothing stopping us from you know one you know it’s like another one is once I do enough uh courses once I see enough therapist once I blah blah blah blah blah blah blah once I’ve healed myself then I can have a relationship yeah yeah exactly yeah so it’s just not it’s not how it works and everybody that I know who who’s found that freedom they recognize they might think oh here’s this is a good path to get there but they recognize that nothing’s necessary for it the the description of it everywhere that you look is is a remembering or it’s a Birthright or it’s what you are naturally it’s your nature like it’s it you know the only difference between the teacher and the student is that the teacher sees that it’s true and the teacher about them whereas potentially the student doesn’t see that it’s true about them but they’re both free and so that like everywhere you everywhere you look in any tradition it points to that a a tradition that teaches Freedom it points to the idea nothing’s necessary they might say hey meditation is a great way to see this so sit in a room and meditate but the core of the teaching is that it’s your nature that you’re finding right so so how can how can people who are listening to this right now find and explore and uncover on Earth some of these some of these conditions that they place on their freedom they’re going to be found in the things that you’re working towards with anxiety the things you beat yourself up for not having uh the things that you think are going to make you happy or the things you’re scared to lose basically that’s your list be if I’m if I’m if I’m trying my best to become the smartest most intelligent most eloquent uh podcast speaker person that is the least eloquent I’ve been this podcast then I’ll be happy that would be then that could be one of them or yeah or when people are afraid of losing losing a capacity or a skill that they’ve had with aging or with an injury yeah yeah yeah once I become an NFL star then I’ll be happy oh my God if I lose being an NFL star so it’s it’s really the more core ones like the thing that’s crossing my mind is like when the girls were first born I was deeply scared of losing Tara I was like oh my God the worst possible thing in the world would be losing Tara and I’m I’m wondering like did I think that Tara was required for my freedom I I didn’t did I think that my world would be deeply constrained if Tara left I did and if Tara for whatever reason left died whatever got cancer um if that happened would I have found a deeper level of freedom I might have interestingly right I I what’s interesting to me is that like there’s people there’s these it’s an interesting point is that and I haven’t really ever considered it till now is that there’s a group of people who when I meet them I say oh you’ve really dedicated your life to serving somebody like taking care of somebody like wiping someone’s butt for years like I can tell right and it’s oftentimes it’s they had a kid who was born with disabilities that they had to care for they lived with a parent for multiple years you know taking care of them or some some version of that one of one person who’s coming to mind right now her husband got MS and couldn’t move and she took care of him for a decade and I can I can I can I can see that in a person because they’re so soft there is just like a gentleness to them there is a like there’s something has been worn down um through that process of it’s an interesting thing that the thing that we fear often can provide another level of freedom for us even even the things that that don’t seem appealing at all and it’s an interesting kind of recognition that just because there’s another potential Freedom available doesn’t mean you need to right dive into like okay I’m just gonna go like have a spinal cord injury now so that I can go through that experience and find the freedom which I know many people with spinal cord injuries yeah and it’s a hero experience and they often find a lot of freedom that they didn’t expect and you know that’s like not something I’m going to go do to find my freedom exactly yeah exactly and unnecessary yeah yeah yeah but the but the idea that once I change once I get out of a situation once blah blah blah like yeah doesn’t mean you can’t leave a situation that’s unhealthy for you but the idea that you’re going to be free free once it once you blah blah blah it just doesn’t it doesn’t ever pan out and and and all anybody has to do is look back in their life and there’s something that you thought would give you the freedom that you got that didn’t give you the freedom like whether it was like the woman that you finally found and then or the money or the acknowledgement from the parent or the whatever it was we can all see like the freedom didn’t last very long I think the freedom is more about the fact that the desire for something to make you free went away you know like so it’s like oh my God once I have money and then you get the money and there’s this short little period of time where you’re like ah I got it and you don’t have any other want that has spun up yet no new demand for you to fulfill to get your freedom and then you’re like oh great and that’s actually where the freedom is and then five days later it’s like oh shit I have to like now really understand my emotional world to become free and off you go on your next on your next thing right so it’s it’s often times those like moments in life when you’ve accomplished something that the the joy in it isn’t that you’ve accomplished it it’s that there’s nothing left for you to accomplish for a little while like you can just Revel in the moment of Life Of Being Alive yeah that sort of speaks to kind of the what that brings up for me is the path of following your wants rather than your shoulds it’s like when you follow your wants you get to have those experiences you get to have the experience of getting what you want and finding that it wasn’t actually what you imagined and if you don’t let yourself follow it then you get to continue to have the illusion the story that if I got this then I would be free there reminds me of my favorite Jim Carrey quote which is I’m gonna paraphrase I’ll probably get it wrong but I hope that everybody could find success in Fame so that they can find out that that’s not what it’s all about right yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah that’s that’s the yeah the the the interesting piece that to me the most interesting piece about this is that at some point when you when you’re going down this road you get to this question which is the easiest way to put it there’s a thousand ways that people ask this question but the way I’m going to ask the question is if I am awake if I’m a free then I should be happy to live on top of a disco right but then people who feel awake and free don’t tend to live on top of a disco right and so it’s like should I live on top of the Disco was that the best path to my freedom should I not live on top of the Disco is that my best Freedom like should I keep on being with this relationship that’s somewhat abusive and like a little dysfunctional is that my path to Freedom or should I go and try to find a better relationship that my path to Freedom right so it’s this question of like should I Endure some sort of pain or should I or should I get avoid the pain and go find something else and it’s a lovely lovely question and my answer from when people ask that is uh you just whatever you’re doing is the right answer right if you’re living on top of the Disco that’s the right answer if you’ve left the Disco that’s the right answer it’s like that both of them are paths to Freedom what like what are you going to choose to do I think the and and both of them have a problem like enduring abuse is like it’s like I like if you look at Mandela Mandela wasn’t like they opened the door and they weren’t he wasn’t like okay I’m just gonna stay in here he’s like yeah I’m out I’m gonna go like run the country right it it wasn’t enduring he wasn’t choosing it so that obviously enduring abuse is telling yourself that this is not you’re not worthy but that’s exactly how Byron Katie found it and then avoidance you know is alcoholic um the alcoholic who who can’t recover because they have all this wealth well what what like there’s no good answer to that question like there’s no good to different epiphanies yeah and different people need different epiphanies like each of us has like a different history and a different set of a different shape of fears and anxieties and hopes dreams images and so if we if we follow if we follow the evolution that just comes up through us we’re bound to run into those perfect epiphanies for us for our particular anxieties and our particular and and trusting yourself makes it a little bit quicker like it’s like oh I trust that I can listen to myself and know which way to go it makes the whole journey a little bit quicker I remember this story it was like a Ramana Maharshi story I think and um somebody comes to him and is like should I give up being a householder and go join a monastery and he’s like no and the guy’s like you don’t know me how the hell what what makes you think you can say that he got defensive of course he got defensive because he’s taking away the guy’s identity which is should I should I not should I should I not totally identified that way Ramana’s like nope guy gets angry and and Ramana’s response was you should be sitting here asking me a question is what you should be doing right and and and that’s like somewhat unsatisfactory somewhat points to like the freedom that you’re looking for is in this moment don’t like what what makes you leave the moment because it’s right here right now and so there’s something in that but there’s also something about hey what’s what’s making you not trust yourself in this moment what’s making you not say oh this is exactly where I’m supposed to be I’m supposed to be having a hundred million dollar company worried about money I’m supposed to be like this is the place and and and and I don’t mean that like you’re supposed to be like it like in a magical thinking kind of way though there seems to be some sort of interesting thing that occurs around like we find ourselves where we’re supposed to be but I mean it more of like if that’s your mindset if your mindset is like oh this is where I’m supposed to be this is where the opportunity is found to learn to about myself to grow to lean in then that’s the most productive idea on how to face a moment no matter what the moment it’s like it’s a lot more productive than I shouldn’t shit be here you know it’s I should be here and potentially be here so I can learn to leave right okay that’s fine but like what what are you here for and this person was supposed to bring their indecision to Ramana Maharshi so that it could be reflected back to them like they were going to they were going to continue using that pattern until eventually it ran into some sort of a wall some sort of a mirror and so that was exactly the question that they needed to ask right yeah exactly and maybe they needed to get the answer 10 years later yeah you know yeah but but the the it’s a much more productive thing to say oh right now is the lesson that I need to learn than it is to say where am I supposed to be what am I supposed to be doing should what if I lose the money what do I need to get there I need X Y and Z to get there far more more productive to just be like oh the thing that I need to get there is presenting itself to me right now this moment not the next moment and so the the the other the other thing is it’s like this is like the setup of life too right it’s um once I graduate from school then I’ll get into the right college and once I graduate from college I’ll get into the right job and then once I get the right job I’ll have enough money and I’ll get the right I’ll get the right girlfriend/boyfriend and you know and then I’ll have kids and then like a lot of my clients have done all that stuff like it’s like it didn’t pan out it doesn’t pan out and I’ve met people who’ve meditated for 20 years and then once I’ve meditated for 20 years where the thing that they’re looking for is right there it’s always been there it’s always or right here it’s always been right here you can’t you can’t avoid it if you stay in this moment it’s like it’s unavoidable right now I can be who I want to be I can say what I want to say I can do what I want to do and I can be in contact with myself and like that like that’s where the freedom lies but I’m wearing a headset in front of a podcast mic and I have to pee how could I possibly be free it’s a good point nobody’s free because everybody has to pee once I have to stop peeing then I can be free once I finally to do by my biology godamn it and scene and scene is there anything else you want to add no that feels right feels right awesome thank you everybody for listening pleasure always I like that we ended with pee that’s good yeah yeah you could do that more often uh if you enjoyed this episode please share it with somebody uh we love that that’s how people find our work that’s how people find the podcast and till next time awesome ciao bye