Summary
Joe Hudson and Brett Kessler dismantle the common question “How do I find my purpose?” by showing that the question itself assumes you don’t already have one. Joe observes that people who are truly thriving never talk about having “found” their purpose — they’re just living it. The search for purpose often masks a search for approval: “What can I be acknowledged for?”
The core reframe is that purpose isn’t an object to find but an emergent property of how you’re being. Joe traces a thread through his own life — music, comic strips, business, coaching — and realizes the common element was never what he did but how he did it: always exploring how humans see themselves. Purpose lives in the present moment, in the quality of engagement, not in a career title or mission statement.
The conversation traces a maturation arc: first there’s fear and aliveness in stepping toward purpose, then scary choicelessness where it hurts too much to do anything else, and finally a non-personal surrender where purpose lives through you. Joe emphasizes that this journey can’t be shortcut — trying to jump ahead is like kids wanting to be older.
Key Concepts
- Searching for purpose assumes you don’t already have it
- Purpose is in the how, not the what
- Purpose is recognition, not decision
- Purpose-seeking often masks approval-seeking
- Purpose matures into choicelessness
- Living your purpose becomes non-personal
Key Quotes
“The idea that it’s your sense of purpose or that you have to find it and that you can think about it — all of those things really get in the way.”
“It’s really not about what you’re doing either, which is really interesting. It’s really about how you’re doing it.”
“I have no doubt in my mind that this whole company, my whole career could completely collapse and I would still be living my purpose.”
“Often times people confuse a sense of purpose but they’re really asking is what can I be acknowledged for? Where’s the approval going to come from?”
“I don’t know any purpose that I’ve ever lived in that doesn’t crack me open some way, that doesn’t challenge me to be beyond myself.”
“The more it’s living you… it becomes very non-personal.”
Transcript
And so it’s really not about what you’re doing either which is really interesting. It’s really about how you’re doing it. It’s really about oh is this a little scary, is this a little big, does it require you to go beyond what you think is possible. Hey everybody it’s Joe Hudson and this is Brett Kessler and today we’re going to be talking about how to find your purpose. And the question is an incredibly unique question in the fact that when you start asking it you realize that it falls apart and it reveals something far more interesting and far more meaningful for your life. So there’s this interesting phenomenon that I’ve been noticing where a lot of people come to me and they’re like I’m looking for my purpose. How do I find my purpose? And when I look at the people who are just crushing it in life, I don’t hear any of them really talking about hey I’m so glad I found my purpose because if not for that I’d be screwed. And I’m curious what’s behind that. You know I mean I remember that time in my life. There was definitely a time in my life where I was searching for a purpose or at least that’s what I was telling myself. I wanted to find a sense of meaning, a sense of belonging, a sense of I’m doing the thing that I’m supposed to be doing. And there was a search for it. There was some idea that I could particularly think about, I could think about it enough that it would happen. And interestingly I was — I have a couple stories around it — but interestingly I was with my daughter recently and we were in New York, new college, and she was talking about the difference between her two summers. One summer she went to Panama and she at 17 years old got herself an apartment and helped study nature with the Smithsonian. And then this summer she went touring through Europe with a friend drinking, partying, sightseeing. And she said that the first one had a sense of purpose that she missed in the second one. And it was interesting because it wasn’t her purpose. She wasn’t saying I’m looking for my purpose. She just felt that sense of purpose in doing it. And I have no doubt that in her life she’ll do many other things that will give her a sense of purpose and many other things that will not give her a sense of purpose. And so one of the things that I notice is that the idea that it’s your sense of purpose or that you have to find it and that you can think about it — all of those things really get in the way. And that’s what happened with me is I was sitting around thinking about how do I find my purpose. And there was a rut in that question. There was a way in which that question assumed the purpose wasn’t already there. There was a way in the question that purpose wasn’t found in how I did something. There’s a way in that question where I felt like it was possible for me to not be in my purpose. That even the questioning of how to find my purpose wasn’t part of my purpose. So there’s a way in which the question itself assumes that you are a dog that can’t bark. How do I bark? It’s like we’re born with this thing. And the question is are we living it in this moment and how can we acknowledge if we’re living it in this moment. And if not, what has to change in this moment to make us feel closer to our purpose. The purpose is found more often in the moment than it is going to be found in some idea or some book or some career or some job. So in the framing you’re seeing that there’s a seeking, there’s a denial of having it. In the search — to know that you were somehow not born with a purpose. If I look back on my life there was something that I was born with, meant to do. It’s unfolding. I still don’t have complete clarity over it. I don’t know where it’s going to lead. But I know that in this moment there’s a way that I feel like I’m more aligned with my purpose or less aligned with my purpose. And there’s been no moment that I can find where I don’t know if I’m more aligned or less aligned with my purpose. How I’m being, how I’m thinking, how I am with you, how I am with myself — all of that, there’s a purpose in that. So there’s another piece here that it’s rather than a decision it’s a recognition. And rather than an outside thing it’s an inside thing. Often times people confuse a sense of purpose but they’re really asking is what can I be acknowledged for? Where’s the approval going to come from? Which is interesting because it’s just the opposite. They’re looking to be told what it is on some level. And the interesting point there is what if the purpose isn’t something that has to be found — it’s something that has to be acknowledged. And you see some purpose-driven books about how to find your purpose and then they’ll say something like notice all the books that you’re reading, what is it about — that’s going to tell you your purpose. Which is another way to say there’s an acknowledgement to it. It’s less of a finding and it’s more of an acknowledgement. And there’s something deeply scary that I find for people, scary for me, to acknowledge that purpose. I remember I was at this hot springs and I’m getting a massage from this woman, definitely a very woo woman. And she’s giving me this massage and she stops and she said they have a message for you. And the message was something to the effect of we can’t wait any longer. You know what you’re supposed to do. This woman knew nothing about me, didn’t know if I was in any question of any of it. But an evocative prompt anyway. And when it hit me I was like oh shit, she’s right. And it required that prompt for whatever reason, whatever serendipity that happened in my life. I knew at that moment there’s something that I’m supposed to be sharing. Me being of service and helping people see themselves more clearly is what I’m supposed to be doing. What’s the transition from the questioning to the recognition — tracking that recognition? One of the things that I realized at the beginning was it was scary. There was an aliveness to it. There was a wow. That was one of the first things. And it’s interesting because I was talking to my daughter about this and she was saying in college she’s missing a sense of purpose. And I was saying have you ever felt purpose that didn’t require you to put yourself out there, to have a challenge, to go the next step, to put out effort? Some version of like oh this is — oh my god — oh, you know? And she was like no. And to some degree that’s part of the equation because if it’s important to you it’s going to be a little scary. It’s going to take a little effort. There’s going to need to be a little oomph. And then interestingly later it’s the effortlessness that tells me to some degree if I’m on my purpose in the moment. There’s a way in which if I’m aligned with who I am and what I’m supposed to be doing it requires less effort. The initial step takes a lot but then eventually there’s a way in which I’m monitoring the ease in my system to tell me how I’m living on purpose and where I can find a deeper level of purpose in this moment. Kind of teasing apart the different versions of the word effort there is interesting because there’s almost an effortlessness in encountering being faced with the awareness that here’s what I want to do and that requires me to show up fully. That requires my vivaciousness, my aliveness, which from some perspectives could be called effort but it’s the opposite kind of effort than a grind. Maybe it’s more — there’s a fear of rejection that you have to overcome because it’s so important to you. And the thing that when I said about my daughter, at first I wrote songs and did comic strips. I did art form and that was the good thing. That was my purpose. But business wasn’t. And there was this understanding that that’s going to change. For my daughter that changed for me into another thing into another thing. And then looking back — oh there’s this thread that no matter what I was doing, business or art, there’s a way in which I was constantly interested in who am I, what am I, how do humans work, how do we see ourselves more clearly. It was always there. And so it’s really not about what you’re doing either which is really interesting. It’s really about how you’re doing it. It’s really about oh is this a little scary, is this a little big, does it require you to go beyond what you think is possible. I was recently just a second ago listening to a song and it said I don’t know any love, any powerful love or any worthy love that didn’t break my heart. I feel like that could be said about purpose. I don’t know any purpose that I’ve ever lived in that doesn’t crack me open some way, that doesn’t challenge me to be beyond myself. I want to extract a little bit of a nugget out of what I’m picking up here which is around purpose as an object — purpose is a thing that you can be doing — or purpose as the emergent property of how you are being. And so when you were describing all the different things you were doing in your life and I do the same, I look back through my life and it’s like okay what did I do? I did a lot of base jumping, I did some business, I did some traveling, meeting people in different cultures and learning. And what was it all about in the way that I was doing it that felt most me? And it was exploring myself. It was exploring my relation to the world. There’s like you could say there’s an archetype of Explorer in there on some level. There’s different ways that I could have gone about those same activities that would have had a different alignment to purpose than one another. And so I could look at the contents of what I’ve done in my life or the contents of what I do in my career and that might tell me less than how it is that I prefer to move about the world and what kinds of ways of relating to my experiences move me the most deeply. I have no doubt in my mind that this whole company, my whole career could completely collapse and I would still be living my purpose. It’s not about what I do. It’s about how do I do it. It’s about an acknowledgement. It’s about the moment. And that throws the game of how do I find my purpose, what’s my purpose, that’s constantly thinking about it — just throws it all away. And it feels like that’s just a way of proving that you’re not enough. How do I explore purposefully? Even the way in which you’re exploring is aligned with your purpose or isn’t aligned with your purpose. So that I think is the quintessential thing about finding your purpose. The other part that I think is really important about living a life where you have a sense of purpose is what you said — it’s not a question anymore. Somebody comes to me with a million dollar opportunity. It’s very easy for me to say no or yes. Because there’s a deep feeling of choicelessness. I know that life does not feel good if I’m not living my purpose. I know it doesn’t go as well if I’m not living my purpose. I know my approach isn’t as productive if I’m not living my purpose. And so this choicelessness shows up where it just hurts too much to do anything otherwise. And so there’s no question left to be asked. Even in the moment typically — I mean occasionally fear rises and whatnot — but most of the time everything is so clear. There’s not a question about it. You’re not worried about the consequences anymore. You’re not worried about how it’s going to go, if it’s going to go well, if that’s going to work. That all goes away because you know that in this moment it’s going to suck and you’ve been down the road enough times trying to manage your purpose that you see it doesn’t work consistently enough. That you just oh, I know this is who I am, how I am, this is the place I have to go. And at first that also is really scary. Like I remember this time where I was so clear I was supposed to do this thing and I did not want to do it. And my wife was like don’t do it and my daughter was like don’t do it. I was like I got to do it. I feel the call. They’re like don’t do it. I’m like I know I don’t want to do this. And then I did it and it was the right thing. It was challenging as shit but it was the right thing. And there’s this part that’s just very — at first — and then you find out oh well that works and you just keep doing it. And it’s interesting how the flip from approval to acknowledgement or recognition. You know, if you’re looking for your purpose from the perspective of what is going to get me approval, you’re never going to get the approval or the purpose. But if you are doing what you just described and you’re just like ah, it hurts too much to do anything but this thing, I’ve got to do this thing, and everyone’s like no don’t do it — there’s no approval there. No approval. But you do that over and over and then a recognition builds. The recognition with you internally of like oh, I actually am living my purpose. It is living through me. I remember this moment I was doing my first, second retreat maybe, and this woman came up to me. She goes you don’t have any choice do you? How did you know that? How did you see that? Like dumbfounded me. That moment where you feel like deeply seen by something but you haven’t fully even acknowledged it in yourself. Just like when a moment hits you where you’re oh, this is the thing I have to do and everyone’s like no, don’t do it. Exactly. I think that’s the important thing is one of the promises of living your purpose is things like that — people acknowledge it, people see it, you get acknowledged etc. But living your purpose is a process. It’s an evolution. It grows. And part of the time of living your purpose is discovery and fighting against it. And part of it is acknowledging it and doing the scary thing. And part of it is a feeling of choicelessness. And you don’t get to shortcut that stuff. There is a way in which it develops. And so the idea that I’m going to go find my purpose and then I’m going to have it instead of I am on a journey and the whole journey reveals my purpose — is infused with purpose. And two years in the journey you look back and the idea of purpose is totally changed. 20 years you look back and the idea of purpose has totally changed. And so there’s a maturation in it. And so trying to jump it — it reminds me of my daughters when they were younger wanting to be older. It’s like this is the process. There are a lot of people who go around the world as though they’re living their purpose and they say that they are and are clearly grinding against the grain of what’s trying to actually happen in their lives. And so how do you know if you’re fooling yourself? Like oh I’ve got this purpose, my purpose is to save the world. There can be some sort of neurotic thing that moves you and convinces you that it’s a purpose but it doesn’t feel like the kind of feeling that I would have when I say I’m living my purpose or somebody else might have. So there’s a different internal perspective on it. Part of me wants to answer the question as if they feel like they’re living their purpose, great, and it will continue to refine itself. And part of me wants to answer which is if there’s a tension and friction in the whole thing, it tells you that there’s a way in which there needs to be a refinement of the purpose. That there’s a way you can be more attuned to your purpose, more aligned with your purpose. There’s a way that you’re not surrendered to it. There’s a way you’re not fully acknowledging your purpose. You said something beautifully in this podcast which is when your purpose is living you or some version of that — the more it’s living you. And so I would just keep on going into that place of surrender and then whatever reveals itself will reveal itself. That sort of turns the whole question on its head. So if rather than I’m looking for my purpose, it’s something more like where do I feel the most resistance and friction in living my purpose right now? And then let’s go there. Let’s explore that. And there’s just another thing which is there’s no defense. It would be like defending the fact that you have sight. It is this thing that’s occurring and you can’t really deny it and you can’t really defend it. So that’s another thing — it becomes very non-personal. My experience of the more I’m living my purpose, the more non-personal it gets. And when I made music I was constantly terrified and wanting to know what people thought about it. And though that was living my purpose because it led me here, there is a way in which if I would have said oh how do I live my purpose in this music right now, what feels more in my purpose — immediately it would have been oh what’s more in my purpose is to write this music for me, to play it in the way that makes sense for me. And so when you see great artists that are deeply in their purpose, they’re doing it for them. And that way it becomes unassailable. So the doubt — there’s no way to doubt it. Well that was fun. That was a good one. Thank you Joe. Thank you everybody. Thanks again for listening everybody. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please share us, rate us in your podcast app, leave us a review. We really love it when that happens. It doesn’t change our sense of purpose though.