Summary
Tara Howley interviews Michael Nagle, a longtime Art of Accomplishment community member who was diagnosed with colon cancer 14 months prior. Michael describes the grueling trade of his chemotherapy cycle — three days of intense illness for eleven good days — and the profound uncertainty of whether that trade is even worth it. He speaks candidly about the “psychedelic of mortality” and how proximity to death heightens all of his interactions and relationships.
Michael explores the paradox of feeling both deeply unlucky and deeply lucky. Though he has no partner, a community spontaneously organized to ensure he never goes to chemo alone, rotating caregivers in and out. For someone who built his adult life around autonomy and self-sufficiency, receiving this level of care feels like an unfamiliar trust fall. He describes the experience through three layers: the mind in denial, the heart breaking between grief and gratitude, and the gut holding a quiet curiosity about what this experience means.
A central insight emerges around choice: Michael realized that unless he accepts the possibility that this could be the end of his life, he can’t truly choose chemotherapy — he’s just reacting from fear. Tara draws a parallel to her own natural childbirth experience, where actively saying “yes” to the pain transformed it. Michael reflects that if he can say yes to chemo — the most extreme thing he’s encountered — then what would he ever say no to? The conversation ultimately reveals that struggle itself can be a pleasure, and that the messiness of interdependence is inseparable from love.
Key Concepts
- The psychedelic of mortality heightens all interaction
- Receiving support requires surrendering autonomy
- Grief and gratitude coexist in the heart
- Accepting death enables real choice
- Saying yes to the hardest thing transforms everything else
- Denial has a functional purpose
- Community forms spontaneously around vulnerability
Key Quotes
“I feel like both people around me are hornier but also with me… it’s almost this image of like the ‘why not now’ just kind of infects people.”
“If I’m not open to the fact that this is the end of my life, I can’t choose… I’m just scared, I’m just like, have to have to do chemo.”
“It’s so fun even the parts that I hate about living. It’s a pleasure to get to struggle and get to resist and get to be confused.”
“I hate it… to not believe that I’m self-sufficient… I’ve really constructed my adult life to have a lot of autonomy.”
“Cancer like flash freezes your life. Whatever setup you have, that’s what you’re going to work with.”
“Under all of the turmoil there is a ‘so this is what’s happening… does that mean I don’t get to live a meaningful or joyful life? I don’t know actually.‘”
Transcript
really like my survival depends on my community and people showing up and there’s a messiness to it I feel like both people around me are hornier but also with me you know like there’s some like it’s almost this image of like the why not now just kind of infects people [Music] hello and welcome to the art of accomplishment where we explore living the life you want with enjoyment and ease I’m Tara Howley and today I’m speaking with Michael Nagel Michael is a beloved and longtime member of the AOA Community a little over a year ago he was diagnosed with colon cancer which completely unraveled the life he’ been previously living where he was working in alternative education and sematic healing practice practices he’s been incredibly introspective and real about his journey with cancer and we sat down to talk about what he’s learned so far hi Michael hi thanks so much for being here today with us yeah very happy too I’m so excited to see you yeah that’s very nice yeah so I’m gonna start with the question sure so you’re not dead yet I’m Not Dead Yet you’re not dead yet though you might be soon yes yep what’s it like to want to live because you really want to live I do and God I mean there’s there’s so much to share I’ve had a cancer diagnosis now 14 months um so since October 2023 total shock total Blindside just I’ve never been sick in my life so it’s a totally strange experience I’ve always been healthy and able to do things things and you know minor muscular skeletal issues and things like that but nothing nothing serious um I’ve been doing we could call it three quarters conventional treatment one quarter alternative treatment um you know so I’ve done chemotherapy and radiation and surgery and yeah has helped a lot with my quality of life and currently we’re just maintaining the cancer state in my body so currently I do chemotherapy it’s every two weeks it takes about 50 hours or so it’s long it’s long so there’s a part in a hospital and then a part comes home with me so if we start Wednesday morning it goes till about Friday Friday afternoon it’s about 2 and a half days takes me a day or two to recover from that and then I kind of have nine 10 solid days with some luck and each two weeks has that of going from chemo and symptom management to okay I’m getting back to steady ground and lately it almost feels like a race like okay I’ve got eight nine good days what are we doing with them yeah as long as I keep doing conventional treatment which is a huge question for me if I with it or not it’s kind of like you know I’m told that my cancer is stable and for modern oncology that’s a good result for my cancer and for me it’s incredibly unsatisfying you know it’s it’s not what I want I want I I feel up for the challenge if I knew okay we’re going to get through you know we’re going to have a cancer-free body in a couple months or a year okay a really challenging experience to hold things stable what I realized was like wow I have to pay three days of pretty intense illness to get 11 yeah that’s the equation in my life right now a steep price Deep it’s Steep and it can I ask you a question what what makes it worth it yeah it’s the the truly honest anwers I’m not sure I’m not sure if the exchange is worth it I’m it’s such an intense exchange rate yeah very expensive but I’ve seen it in this process of oh I don’t like what’s happening to me this feels like such a waste of a human life and that feeling is somehow it’s tied into the well I’m not dead yet yeah okay what would I like to do with this time yeah and yeah there’s a couple of feelings I mean one is for better and for worse it heightens almost all of my interactions it I’ve been really really interested in um I call it the Psychedelic of mortality like what it does to people to be near me like the contact eye what it does me what it does to my relationships and what what is it like what does it do most of my interactions feel heightened you know maybe all you know and there is that like like um it gets harder to leave things unsaid when there’s this like H is there a later my assessment or my knowing of you is you you offer that level of support to your community always you were the you were the rock you were the support system and so what’s it like to be on the other side yeah receiving the first thing out of my mouth is I hate it I don’t hold that in that’s the first thing more here what makes you hate it because you can give it I’ve seen you give it time and time again yeah it’s funny I I could see myself about to hold that sentence in I was like let’s just say it and see what that’s vulnerable as [expletive] God yeah to not not believe that I’m self-sufficient and not believe that you know I’ve really up until this point I’ve really constructed my adult life to have a lot of autonomy and a lot of Here’s My Sanctuary this is my space I really care about that if I’m inviting you in it’s very conscious on my part and there’s kind of some switch for me of like oh if I’m inviting you into my world I’m trying to do it the aspirations with total acceptance but the the flip side to that is like you know very very picky very very selective and you know I totally fully 100% get I hate it I get it I can imagine many of us would feel the same way in the in your shoes but if you couldn’t feel that if you couldn’t have that reaction what would you what would you feel or notice I’ve never done a trust fall per se but that’s the image that’s coming to mind like it just feels like this infinite like trusting that I’m gonna be caught I’m gonna be cared for I sometimes talk about this experience as both deeply unlucky and deeply lucky yeah you know cancer like flash freezes your life like whatever setup you have that’s what you’re going to work with if you had aspirations you know I don’t think this is like 100% true but the people you’re close to are the people you’ve got that’s youve got to go through with this and so I don’t have a partner but I’ve had someone with me basically the whole 14 months people have made a calendar and rotate it in and rotate it out and come up with systems and so I had an infusion just this past Wednesday to Friday friend was scheduled to come he got sick he didn’t come my friend will kind of manages my care put out a call and I mean I don’t know how long it took 48 Hours someone had bought a plane ticket and they’re like oh I can come for the week and that feeling like of being caught or held it’s powerful it’s unfamiliar it feels a bit like strange I do feel a bit young in it like I do feel a bit like I’m the toddler in the play pen and I’m just kind of like ah what’s going on what who’s here someone else is here you know just kind of having my big experience and then something’s happening around me to protect me you know it feels like I feel very protected right now it’s really an amazing dichotomy to be on an edge right where you don’t know what what life’s going to be like in six months or one month or a year and to feel protected and perpetually held in that trust fall it’s a mind [expletive] [Music] [Laughter] so weird it’s weird it’s it’s this like strange staring into the unknown feeling well protected knowing you know of course I know a lot of people now who have cancer it’s new me that community and the support systems tend to be partners that tends the support system yeah and so I know folks who are single going through this and they don’t have this rotating cast of loving characters who will you know come and you know I’m trying this alternative thing so you have to cook this really specific way people just they sure I don’t even cook meat at home you want to eat sure okay we’ll figure it out sure whatever so fascinating so the mind is like okay this is a mind [expletive] and the Heart how does the heart hold those two if at all grief and gratitude those are the two big ones yeah the grief is an interesting one because it comes up in all these different nuances grief for my own life there there can be a heart pull when someone leaves of like am I going to see them again and you know that that can pull I feel yeah I think protected is a good word very protected by my community very somehow a community has appeared and just sort of decided you know to the extent that another human can help me with this experience that will happen and you know this is one of the is I think about the work of that weird it feels like a paradox to me if no one can do the work for you but having support makes it a lot less harsh there is a commitment in this community to make sure I never go to chemo alone you know we were we were talking a little bit about the denial like I still I still hope I’m going to wake up and realiz that like I don’t have cancer or that this was all just some confusion or maybe the doctors are making too big a deal out of this and you know it’s not really lethal and which is amazing given that you’ve been going through this for four I mean the power of the mind right it’s amazing 14 months chemo every two weeks it’s amazing how much the Mind bucks against this and almost the shock of like it feels like that should be a Birthright it feels like that should just be you’re human of course you never go through an experience like the fire yourself and we said mind denial heart grief and gratitude and you’re because you’re dealing with colon cancer what’s Your Gut how’s your gut feel about holding this I don’t know if it’s hard or gut but let’s go with gut it’s like under the denial and under the the kind of slamming back and forth from grief gratitude I would say the gut is probably where the Curiosity about this is living the like this is what’s happening to me and it’s like yeah like actually being able to turn into it being like this is my reality as much as I want to not believe it like under all of the turmoil there is a like so this is what’s happening ah okay does that mean that I don’t get to live a meaningful or joyful life I don’t know actually yeah what what does it mean from the gut right asking the gut like what does it mean you know I I’ve I’ve gone back and forth but I tend to lean towards there’s some kind of animating Force Spirit Divine force and I think from the from the gut point of view it’s like so what if this isn’t just a mistake what if this isn’t just tragic and it’s I’ve had to learn if if I skip the denial and the Heartbreak that feels terrible to me yeah yeah yeah of course course and it’s it’s the most obvious thing and yet I’ve really had to come into I can’t go to the spiritual without watching my mind just be like I hate this situation and watching my heart being like I don’t want to say goodbye to people this is terrible what yeah and then under that there can be a bit of a like so this is what’s happening yeah and the aspiration to still have a rich beautiful life is still there yeah huh this is never the script I would have written for myself here we are what do we what do we do with that yeah what do you do with that and I don’t want to bypass the denial I’m also in denial like no [expletive] this terrible idea and grieving like oh my God heartbreaking yeah and so not bypassing those so what what is there there’s a couple things that are alive there and like what if this isn’t a mistake you know what if this isn’t wrong what if this isn’t just tragic yeah if it isn’t a mistake what is it oh I love being able to write I love being able to speak into this experience that feels really like that feels worth it that feels worth it I get curious about just how far does Mind Body Energy healing go yeah and there isn’t a movement in me that’s like why not push it can it interact with my cellular dysfunction I have no clue but I believe in that I believe in it I believe that there’s some way that the body holds emotion as energy and there is something where it feels like Health you know when we release and we move it feels like Health it’s an undeniable feeling I think of so much you know so many kinds of work of just we move something and we feel healthier we feel more resilient we feel more present yeah and call it emotion call it energy call it trauma healing you know there’s some signature that just I I can’t deny that feels like Health to me and so there’s something in me of like okay I want to spend time with the people I love I want to write and I want to go as far as I can in the mind body healing path and just see what happens and there’s some just like if not now I don’t have a later anymore it’s really intense to not have a later but it also it’s it’s confronting in a helpful way if I believe in it now’s the moment that was the moment fascinating right there’s no tomorrow like okay I’ll do it next year I don’t know how long my body can hold out and I don’t know how long I’m going to be up for this three days for 11 days trade or now I keep doing it and it’s not even that trade isn’t even a long-term promise that trade the expect is at some point that will no longer be available to me right and so for now you know in this minute I think well I’ll keep taking the trade not knowing if it’s couple months six months a year I Leave Myself the door every chemo to be like if you want to be done with this you’re welcome to be done like and that feels really really I think so much about the um there’s a heuristic that I learned from AOA like the way I I remember it is like if you’re worried that you might have conflict where it could rupture the relationship like a breakup you know it can be really helpful to grieve that breakup first and then you can actually be yourself and be like hey here’s my limit here’s my boundary and I’m no longer contorting from that possibility and I found an analogy of that for me in mortality of like oh if I’m not open to the fact that this is the end of my life I can’t choose chemo I’m just kind of I’m just like like you know don’t want to die don’t want to die they say they’re gonna keep me alive blinders are on versus the like I’m actually at choice that choice might be the end of my life but there is a choice it’s not actually being forced into it it’s so easy to project cap onto my oncologist it’s so easy to make projection but he’s not actually my cap or anything like that this is him you know basically saying I wish I had better for you this is what I have would you do you want to take the three days for 11 days trade that I can help you with it’s gonna be we can do that together and yeah there’s this like oh if I’m not open to this being the end of my life I can’t choose right you know I’m just I’m just like a scar I’m so scared that I’m just like have to have to do chemo what I’m hearing is that knowing that you’re accepting the end of your life is actually empowering you to know you can say yes or no so you really know where your no is and what your yes is it just it feels like like the will to live is at least in me it’s strong I’ve wondered a lot about what’s the functional side of the denial you know you know writing is an easy example art making it takes time it takes effort you want to revise things you want to work on it and if I’m really in the short short short term I don’t know how that would go and I have to believe okay I’ve got some time I don’t have to drop everything and write everything out that’s inside of me right this minute we can work day by day and I sort of see denial as like oh right you know if one wants to build a creative life an intimate life a professional life it’s really useful to not be in life or death every minute function it protective you talked about the community being protective but it sounds like denial has a protective quality too I think so I’ve been really interested in like what’s the positive yeah of denying death yeah and what’s the dysfunction and denying it’s hard to be at Choice with Cho it’s very hard but if I don’t buy the story that cancer means joy and meaning are impossible it’s a really easy story to buy really really easy but if I don’t buy that story I think being at choice in chemo is integral to the like wow I I am choosing to poison myself I’m choosing to do it so it’s very different but you know what it reminds me of when I was in I did a natural child birth with our first child daughter and my I was had so different death birth but um she was turned the wrong way so we were spine on spine so I had back labor for like 42 hours and I we’re were doing a home birth and I was just like [expletive] this this sucks this is awful like this sucks which I can imagine is what happens to you every eight days when you go into the cycle and my Midwife was like uhuh Tara she was from the Bronx she was like uh-uh none of that she’s like yes you say yes I want this I choose this I pick this you say yes baby we got this I was like [expletive] that I was like crawling up the walls I was like I don’t want this like trying to resisting the pain running away from it and then and I had 42 hours to adjust and you have birth hormones and things like that so you have a little help thank golly yeah but and and I had her like a drill sergeant over my head and she kept making me say I want this I choose this and it was like my mind was like I don’t want this I’m going to just say it cuz she’s going to hit me but by the end it was like I was turning right to it and it was like yes I want this I choose this come on baby we got this thank you body and I was so grateful for the pain and the more I said yes to it actually the easier it became and it’s different because I wasn’t being infused with chemo drugs like you right this is I had all sorts of body drugs but really changed saying yes really changes the experience yeah and it I I think what one of the things I’ve learned is like at the beginning of diagnosis if someone had try to say you know I don’t know Spirit has a way of working I would have just been like a [expletive] off oh no people said it to you and you said [expletive] off don’t give me that [expletive] horrible yeah and I I think now what I believe is if I can be if I can make room for brain is in complete denial heart is breaking in all kinds of ways then there might actually be a genuine yes available maybe can I can I actually ask something because you said brain is like no denial and heart grieving can you hang out with those two because you said then there might be a yes and can you just hang out with the denial and The Grieving right that freaking heartbreak and when you’re with both what what if at all is the yes it’s um I just love being alive it’s that fundamental it’s so interesting it’s so fun it’s so um you know at some point I even realized I was like oh struggle is fun oh what joy to resist and what is chemo from there what does it look like I get to struggle I get to do this weird thing poison my body it’s it’s two things it’s one is it is this pass of yeah I hate the three days for 11 days deal can I ask you a totally leading question and and I’m coming from my experience with childbirth which is I want to acknowledge totally different than chemo and I had hormones helping me but if like if I were to play my Midwife with you uhuh no NOs no I hate you say [expletive] I love this [expletive] chemo give it to me [Laughter] hard Chemo was such an insane thing to say yes to why wouldn’t I say yes to anything else in my life like nothing is as extreme that I have found and so there’s a like oh if I’m gonna say yes to chemo what what would I be a no to then ever ever because and I mean that both from the health point of view but also not you know like I use that argument a lot where oncologists medical oncologists they’re very conservative they have their reasons yeah you know if I bring up like hey I want to fast for five days they’ll be like Oh I’m not sure about that I want be like you you prescribed me [Laughter] poison room quietly and not eat that’s really not a big deal to being actively poisoned for three days really not a big deal there is a spark of life in there there is a like yeah I want to I want to see this out it’s it’s so fun even the parts that I hate about living yeah it’s a pleasure to get to struggle and get to resist and get to be confused it’s great actually it’s fantastic not actually a problem so wild I feel much much Messier as a person interpersonally than I ever have yeah there’s a way that I constructed my life to be you know I’m an energetically sensitive person so I need a lot of alone time and there’s truth to that that is there’s I still have that preference and there’s a messiness to like I am an interdependent human right now 100% I really like my survival depends on my community and people showing up and there’s a messiness to it with some people I’ve hit triggers that I never would have expected you know never had any idea was in me or in someone else I feel like both people around me are hornier but also with me you know like there’s some like it’s almost this image of like the why not now just kind of infects people you know I’ve seen people’s relationships change in substantial ways after spending time with me something about hanging out in the space of like oh what if there’s not a later Cascades to a you know oh my goodness there’s a thing I need or my partner needs or it’s taking me 15 years to ask for this and finally I can say hey wait a minute you know something about this that’s amazing I mean that’s that’s a gift yeah and the like threat of love in it is like very clear to me very very very clear to me it’s very that I’m cherished that I’m valued that I’m cared for things that I think I would have pushed away I would have pushed you know in some I can take care of this I’m My Own self-sufficient you know like there’s so much evidence to like oh my goodness a community just spontaneously formed to try to protect me through an impossible experience it’s not it’s not possible to protect me from this and yet people come here every week and they you know they do the absolutely best they can you know they cook and they drive me around and they try to come up with fun things to do you know just just is somehow you know it’s not the forcefulness of saying yes to it but it is that like okay you’re here I want to spend time with you we’re going to celebrate basically just this long celebration celebrating love and messiness yeah and how they’re kind of inter yeah you don’t get one without the other one without the other our Humanity it’s like really celebrating Humanity so beautiful Michael it’s nice to zoom out with you and you know just sort of look at the landscape together for a minute let’s do it again love that love that thank you for listening to the the art of accomplishment to hear more about our shared humanity and all its messiness you can join our newsletter or check out our courses at Art of accomplishment and if you enjoyed what you heard today share it with a friend and of course follow us and write us in your podcast app and I want to give a huge huge huge sendoff thank you to Michael Nagel for being with us here today and taking time to come see us Michael it’s so great such a joy to get to spend time with you yeah yeah likewise big big love yeah [Music]